climber decks, kills dog?

[GWG]

A very well respected "old school" gorge climber taught me how to belay years ago and something he said has stuck with me all these years. At my age, not much sticks with me anymore but this did:

When the climber asks "On belay?" and you reply "Belay is on." you have essentially entered into a verbal agreement (contract is the word he used) to keep the climber safe no matter what. This verbal agreement is in effect until the climber says "Off Belay" and you reply "Belay is off".

Secondly, he asked me the difference between belaying with a gri gri and an ATC and I went into a long description of how to use the gri gri. He stopped me in mid sentence and said "Nothing". Use them the same way where you never take your hand off the brake end. He was big on keeping things simple.

The wording isn't important, the understanding of the request is what's important. Take the responsibility of belaying seriously because it is. If you see unsafe belaying, address it. The belayer may get pissed off but I'm sure the climber's grateful.

[shear]

People are really quick to jump on the bashing bandwagon...pretty easy when you're sitting anonymously on the internet huh?

I never see anyone belaying using the Petzl technique, ever...and I doubt any of the people here who are so quick to crucify the belayer use it either.

Andrew...we're gonna be up there Sat/Sun, I think you will be down also. Can't wait to have an all out rock climbing spray session with you.


xoxoxoxo

blake

[rastaman]

From IDratherCLIMB:
"If By witnessed you mean fleeing the scene so fast you left a trail of smoke behind you glancing over your shoulder just long enough to capture a mental image of something you can blog about? Then yes you were."

Really? The climber decked less than 20' from where I was belaying. I wouldn't have posted anything, but it seemed people were being misled. I also thought this story could reinforce the importance of belayer safety for everyone.

Andrew, shortly after the accident the climber was sitting up consciously speaking with people in his group. I had initially sent the kids down the trail with my wife with the intent of sticking around. The climber seemed okay and there was a large group there to help. In hindsight, yes I should have at least asked if the group needed help. And no... you don't know me and I don't know you.

To the people involved in the accident I'm sorry, but posting this is educational for everyone. I'm also sorry I didn't offer my assistance. The climber seemed stable when I left the scene. I'm not posting these things to sound "holier than thou". I was part of a similar accident years ago and learned from it. The more people read about accidents the more aware they are of the dangers of climbing and how to prevent them.

Saxman, I believe your initial post clouds the story a little. The belayer's statements after the incident that you posted could easily have been misheard and are irrelevant to the cause of the accident.

I'm glad everyone is OK and sorry that the dog didn't make it.

[Andrew]

Glad to hear that you stayed and helped rastaman.

[pkananen]

I am a mountain guide in Colorado and have been climbing a long time, and was the first to teach my niece how to climb when she was a little girl.

You might want to refresh your memory. From the AMGA website:

http://amga.com/images/misc_PDFs/Petzl_ ... poster.pdf

Lets not make this personal, but I do want to learn from this. I have never seen anybody use the technique shown here by Petzl. I'll give it a try tomorrow at the gym.

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack. I can use a gri-gri just like an ATC to slowly feed out rope. I can also loop a few feet of rope and hold the cam with my thumb while keeping my index fingers on the rope - I can feed a few feet quickly this way. But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY. More importantly, my thumb is only on the cam for the half second in which I am yanking rope out. I am open minded to there being a better way - but lets not claim this method caused this accident. The only way a climber is decking from 50 feet is if you death grip the cam.

"Paying attention to your climber" is nice - but not always possible. I've been on many rock and ice climbs where you can neither hear nor see your climber. The basis of belaying is paying attention to where your hands are, period.

Mike, I've belayed this way for 2 years. I always have my hand on the brake when giving slack with the grigri.

[blakeleathers]

im still worried about the poor dog

[michaelarmand]

Jeez, I guess I'm going back to the ATC. Eight years climbing you are all telling me I'm a dangerous belayer. I recall the last fall I caught with an ATC the climber said he doesn't want someone using an ATC to belay him - I finally made the switch giving in to the idea that the gri-gri was safer (in some ways it is). I said I'm open to learning a better way. But I'll do some random auditing tonight at the gym - I know I'm going to find some very experienced friends in the "dangerous belayer" group. Peter can give us some remedial lessons...

[DuppyC]

[quote7.] If there is anything I learned from this is to climb with a pack of dogs below me with a layer of cats on top of them.(sorry I had to) RIP Pepper you were a cute dog.[/quote]

+1, If you already know how, there does not seem to be much to learn from this, other than there finally being a good reason to have a dog at the crag. sorry for your loss and I am pysched no humans were worse off. Be safe everyone.

[caribe]

Jeez, I guess I'm going back to the ATC.

I have caught many many falls that happened faster than thought and caught me completely by surprise with both gri and atc. I have use the pinch method w/ the gri sparingly. When I pinch the grigri, the rope is still in the palm of my hand. When I pinch my eyes are on the climber or if I can't see the climber I am hyper-aware of what is happening to the rope. This incident has me questioning whether the pinch method is optimum grigri management. I am going to reprogram myself with the petzl recommendations. I really like Mike's attitude here; I don't know him but this response leads me to think that he is a safe conscientious and honest person. If we are going to learn from these incidents we all need to question our tech and the margins of safety involved in our tech. The wrong approach is to think "those idiots, I am glad I have this right."
• Mike if you use the grigri like can ATC (never take your hand off the brake) how is switching from the gri to the ATC going to increase your climber's safety?

[TradWanker]

And I always thought there was no valid reason to bring a dog to the crag.