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I feel more powerful than I ever have! thanks Rick! I will use these new attained powers to stop the poop!

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Liz –

My first plan of action is to install hidden cameras – the same used to catch illegal hunters – and then threaten to post them for the world if the perpetrator doesn’t return for a clean-up. Just kidding …

I do feel education can play a big role here and we’ve tried to come up with a catchy t-shirt to remind others of the LNT practices. Considering some experiences I’ve had with climbing teams coming here, one in particular that I won’t mention, I think starting at gyms is our best bet. As I’ve said before, some people will not care, but many others are willing to learn. I’ve been one of the people who simply didn’t know, but thanks to climbing with experienced people and having two roommates who achieved PhDs in Environmental Education, I learned a little.

Recently, Rick Bost gave away ~150 donated plastic trowels at trail day in Tenn., and also took the time to educate (with an unaccepted offer for a live demo).

One idea I have is adopting what city parks do for dog waste: provide bags. Considering the number of dog walkers I see, the program is quite successful. The UK arboretum relies on donated bags so that is the idea I will use. For those who care, carry extras and offer them to people.

Another idea we’re going to attempt, although I speculate a low success rate on it, is to hang a trowel near a hot spot. I have one ready to go for the Motherlode. But people need to know that these things cost next to nothing. They’re approximately $1 for plastic and $4 at Wal Mart for a foldable steel type. If you can afford a bear bell, you can afford a shovel.

How about wag bags? Seems to work at Castleton Tower in Moab and lots of other places without bathrooms.

Also, Kipp--I'm not sure what's inspiring your aggro 'tude, but it's totally weird and misdirected. I don't feel like anyone "owes us" anything. I do however feel like a pit toilet or portapotty is one part of responsible land management in heavily visited public recreation areas and would be a good use of collective RRGCC/Access Fund resources. This has worked in many areas across the country, from Lover's Leap to Indian Creek, and is actually a legal requirement in many states, as it should be.

I am sorry you don't agree with this and feel closure of Torrent Falls is a "great idea." I for one completely disagree with this and greatly appreciate the generosity Dr. Bob has shown in keeping this amazing and historical crag open to us all. I always make an effort to leave the place cleaner than I found it and leave a donation to cover operating expenses whenever I am fortunate enough to climb there. Thanks for everything, Dr. Bob, and I hope this doesn't happen again! Maybe a community clean-up day in the near future to help keep things cleaner around there for everyone that visits?

um, dustonian..has the heat gotten to ya brother....see, rhetorical as my final answer there chief...

and let us refresh. Torrent is not public recreation land...Torrent is not owned by a climbing coalition. Torrent does not owe us a port a potty. Torrent is a private residence with climbing behind it. That's it really. I would prefer people jump in their car and go back to the Rest area to take a deuce instead of in the woods at his home.

Of course I don't want Torrent closed, but apparently many do....this is the story played out 1,036 times at the Red...private landowners allow climbers access...said climber screw up access...private landowner asks kindly once again for behavior modification (dogs, crap, children, noise, alcohol, donations,etc)....climbers wink and ignore said requests....landowner then wakes up and wonders why their generosity is pissed on over and over, and they are stuck with the aggravation of our behaviors...

call it an aggro 'tude if you like. I have climbed long enough to know these things never end nicely when climbers are expected to "do the right thing" without some sort of heavy hand reaction or intense baby sitting.

closing Torrent is a great idea, because it is Dr. Bob's home away from home. He owes us nothing. We owe him everything. And we as a group can not seem to get out of our own way on these issues. It isn't personal..it is the self absorbed, uber important, gotta send my proj and can't be bothered to be courteous of others, my sh** don't smell anyway, attitude that climbers bring when they gather in herds at major crags....

trust me dude..I wish I were wrong.

on a similar note...who cleans the toilets you propose? do we put them at the carg or in the parking lot? I think Muir already proves that parking lot toilets are fine, but no lazy climber is gonna leave the crag to use it. hence, the bob marley fiasco would have still ocurred.

No, no problem with the heat... out in Rifle currently, where the air is cool and dry, there are plenty of toilets and zero toilet paper and human waste at the crags.

As for this thread gone wrong, I never proposed toilets at Torrent, that's of course completely up to Dr. Bob. As for cleaning, you pay a monthly service for maintenance of port-a-johns payable to the rental company--usually paid by a combination of local climber coalitions, AF, or land management agencies like USFS. For pit toilets, it's something we would either have to do ourselves as a coalition or pay to have done on regular basis.

In terms of a climber-owner property like the PMRP, it's one of the necessary costs of upkeep. Of course toilet paper is going to start popping up everywhere if you don't give people an alternative. The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people have never been taught the right way to take care of business in the woods. Yes it's extremely disgusting and frustrating, but for the most part I don't think it's a malicious act, just an ignorant one--people from other cultures or younger kids from urban gyms going to the bathroom for the first time ever outside. Not everyone is going to be as enlightened and environmentally conscientious, mostly because they just don't know any better... with the kind of numbers that visit the Red now, even 1% of visitors falling into this category is going to result in a big nasty mess.

I have noticed that Muir is a lot cleaner than most crags in the southern region, so to an extent the toilets there do help. No it's not perfect, but it's certainly a heck of a lot better than nothing. Thanks Liz and Rick!

I think we agree on that...toilets in pmrp..but where? parking lot?

how about the lode? who pays for that one?

Major parking lots it would have to be for cleaning purposes. If people are too lazy to walk back and take a dump then we kill 'em. I for one never need to shit in the Red because I never start climbing before 2 or 3 pm. Aside from that, I guess signs to educate people are in order and maybe wag bags or ziplock bags as some people proposed so "unenlightened" city girls can pack out their TP after taking a leak.

Yeah, the Lode is a major grey area... basically, whatever it takes to keep that place open I'm all for. Whoever knows what that is please take charge. For the most part it is a pretty clean crag considering the visitation levels, except for a little shit spot over there by Snapper....

This is a serious question for the southern region. If I were to install port-a-potties. Where would you want them.

If you fix the dam at coal bank where I can get a four-wheeler across it I would like to put one at the crossroads and then another at the bottom of the solar trail and one at the creek before you start up the hill to darkside.

I think I can get this done.

the self- composting kind like they have at smith are exoensive but dont get turned over and vandalized as much as the port a shitter kind.