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I want to ditto this remark. Has anyone assessed the potential fall if a lower bolt were fixed? What if someone fell with a stick clipped bolt and a bolt blew? Fixed bolts are left gear.jordancolburn wrote:Well, there is usally a reason first bolts are so high, if a low bolt is placed, the slack taken out while clipping the second could easily risk a ground fall. I'm sure there are careful placements that can help this, but high first bolts aren't usually place so high just cause the bolter feels like it.lena_chita wrote: Putting another bolt below the current first one (something that would be reach-able from a good stance on the ledge) would sure make it easier to start this route without a stick-clip. The first bolt is really high up right now, so not even every stick clip can reach it. TROCS is a popular route in a popular location, and making it safer sounds appealing.
Yes, and I will lead such a clinic. I will teach the masses how to procure a painters pole at their local Walmart or hardware store. I will then teach those wish to save $ how to affix a clamp to the acquired pole. Those with greater financial resources may purchase a squid. I will then, to the delight my young stick clipping padawans - show them proper technique. First I will extend the pole……..affix the draw to the clamp…….clip the rope though the draw…..don’t back clip!.....I will let the anticipation and excitement build….I will reach up…..and hook the biner gate through the hanger…..voila!toad857 wrote: there should be a "stick clipping tricks" clinic at the next rocktoberfest... to increase safety, and also to get rid of all that god damn tape all over the ground.
Thanks for your well thought out, and well spaced post. No I have no data to support the claim other than what I've seen from climbing in dozens of areas in about 12 different states over the last 17 years.Wes wrote:Do you have any kind of data to back that up? There have always been high first bolts, esp. if you climb at the New - and those do have hard moves going to the first bolt, unlike most of the rrg routes.
People, this route was put up in 1992 - that is 17 years ago. How many of you have been climbing that long? How about half that time? 1/4? How many thousands of times has it been done totally safely, with or without a stick clip? Exactly. The route is fine. The people that get hurt are the problem. Period. I am very vocal when I think I route isn't bolted safe, or is bolted poorly. And, this isn't the case at all here.
I used to think John B. was maybe being a bit "rough" when he would simply tell people who didn't like the bolting on a route to just not do it, but more and more, I find myself agreeing.
If you do the math and feel you can boulder to the first bolt safely, then you should. Just understand the risks if you don't make it, and don't blame anyone but your self if you fall.
If you are not sure you can make it, stick clip the bolt. If your stick clip is to short, then you need a new stick clip, not a lower bolt. (big money grip, anyone?)
If you can't work out either of those two options, then either get someone to hang a TR for you, or, and I know this might sound crazy, but, just don't do the route. Go find one that you can get the first safely clipped.
For me, it has nothing to do with cost, low first bolts just suck. For the climber, and esp. for the belayer.
Sometimes I stick the first, sometimes I don't. There are times when I stick the 2nd bolt. There are times when I just boulder up to the 2nd or even 3rd bolt. But, none of those things happen without me pondering the math first.
Personal responsibility is the phrase we all need to learn - and that includes having the proper equipment, including stick clips, as well as accepting that all climbing is a choice. If you choose to climb, then you choose to accept the responsibility when something goes wrong. Nothing in climbing is mandatory, expect that gravity is always in effect.
Have you been on this route? Can't assess the wetness? I am pretty sure you are standing in the wetness. It isn't the hand holds that cause the accidents. It is standing in the sandy wet algae ledge and then stepping onto a glassy foot. You can easily understand that it is going to be a bit of a risk stepping onto this route. You can simply step off this route completely unscathed if you decide this is too much of a risk.Spragwa wrote:The crack is frequently wet at the start and I really don't believe this is something someone can assess from the ground. I recommend we all simply try to convince people to stick clip when we see them on the route.
The stick clip is an evolution in climbing technology? Funny. I think it would be easier to argue that stick clipping reduces the potency of any route. Stick clips are nothing more than a way to lower the risk of climbing. They are not for everyone. If you haven't noticed, there are plenty of climbers that try to inject more risk into climbing(highball bouldering, soloing, deep water soloing, sparsely protected trad climbs). What do you tell these folks? Do you tell them they are "misguided"? Please. Stick clip or not, I am sure there are people that think that you are assuming too much risk climbing at all. Do you want someone making that decision for you?Izzy wrote:There is so much talk about the evolution of gear, and the advancement of climbing technology, why is this even a discussion? The stick clip is an evolution of climbing technology, from sport climbing, and should be regarded as such. If someone fell because they were wearing crappy old shoes or not using chalk would you say " add a bolt" ? No, of course not.
If you're not willing to bring a stick clip (or make one), then your decision to make rock climbing a hobby is probably misguided to say the least.
Now lets play nice JR. Nobody wants to establish the climbing police, but offering a word of caution and offering the usage of ones stick clip is certainly not a bad idea. I've been thanked more than once for this advice. Some folks refuse....thats fine too.JR wrote: And as far as "trying to convince" climbers to do what you want them to do. I can only say, I hope we never climb near each other.
Aww look how cute?! Schnookie say it ain't so that you don't want to climb near me... sigh. Guess I'll mark his name off my dance card.JR wrote:I want to give one vote for no more bolts on RoCS.
Have you been on this route? Can't assess the wetness? I am pretty sure you are standing in the wetness. It isn't the hand holds that cause the accidents. It is standing in the sandy wet algae ledge and then stepping onto a glassy foot. You can easily understand that it is going to be a bit of a risk stepping onto this route. You can simply step off this route completely unscathed if you decide this is too much of a risk.Spragwa wrote:The crack is frequently wet at the start and I really don't believe this is something someone can assess from the ground. I recommend we all simply try to convince people to stick clip when we see them on the route.
And as far as "trying to convince" climbers to do what you want them to do. I can only say, I hope we never climb near each other.