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rjackson wrote:Yeah, yeah. The punctuation and grammer "ain't" right either... I'm not looking to get published here, just make a few minor points.

Love the FACEPALM (lol).

But I also noticed that you are evading the research and opting out of supplying a reputable source. When I get home I'll see if I can find one (not some blog or spray) that will back you up.

And I reference the sport/trad grade disparity to bring the point (again) that trad and sport are different animals. No matter how strong you are or what you believe to be true.

I'm not evading anything. Seriously, I feel like I am arguing with a young earth creationist or something.

Here's your homework: find me ONE article from any of the major climbing articles in which a FIRST FREE ASCENT has involved hanging on gear. That's all. That's the only point that you are blatantly wrong about, all your others simply reek of more vague naivity.

rjackson is dumb. SCIN.... right on.

I'll be the one to cry uncle...

Me finding that in a climbing rag is like you finding a definition involving 'must not hang' in anything. It just doesn't exist.

We drug it out to 4 pages, killed a day and I'll agree to disagree on technicalities. Think what you wish... I'm happy with myself. Hope to meet you at the crag someday where we'll probably all get along just fine.

crap...camhead and rjackson can't even argue wihtout a pillow fight in the middle.

camhead, I'll start..answer my first three scenarios with your claim..FA or no FA? then we can argue specifics.

FFA...who even brought that up? why does everybody derail threads? I would never derail a serious debate.

correct me if I am wrong on this point.....let's say a big wall is 10 pitches, and awaiting a FFA. The climber sends first nine pitches in style, leading, using no pre placed gear. pitch 10, the crux pitch looms..the climber leads up, placing gear to the crux...and falls. they lower to the last belay ledge, leaving all gear placed up to this point. they rest, and fire the rest of the pitch with no more falls. is this an FFA?

I say no way, the mags say differently.

did lynn hill clip any old pins on her FFA of the Nose? I bet ya she did.

ok, you win. but isn't the agony of this being the loss of the spirit of the adventure by the rule of laws?

clif wrote:but isn't the agony of this being the loss of the spirit of the adventure by the rule of laws?

To me this preserves the spirit! It is accessible and attainable!

i'm not going to go back and read this thread and try to understand what it is you're taking about.

pigsteak wrote:crap...camhead and rjackson can't even argue wihtout a pillow fight in the middle.

camhead, I'll start..answer my first three scenarios with your claim..FA or no FA? then we can argue specifics.

FFA...who even brought that up? why does everybody derail threads? I would never derail a serious debate.

All I'm saying is that rjackson has trouble distinguishing between an FA and an FFA.

As for your original (2) scenarios, I'm not feeding the troll at all. Be happy with your four pages!

lol...fair enough camhead...fair enough. and I think we agree.....rjackson gets liquored up, next thing you know his twords are all wisted up, and he starts hearin alice in wonderland kiddie songs in his head. sad for him, he is a great guy and I like him. that should be enough to deter anymore people from coming around him.