best 5.7 sport route for some one new to leading

[rhunt]

I learned the biner direction thing way back when I was a gumby and still do it today just out of old habit. But after all these years, do I think it really matter? No not really, unless you are doing a big traverse.

For that matter, I would love to see any stats on ropes coming unclipped because they were back-clipped. Does anyone know of this happening? I have been climbing for 15 years now and know lots of people in the climbing community and have never heard of a rope coming unclipped because it was back-clipped.

[Jay]

Rhunt, I have in fact seen a rope pop free from a back-clipped draw, in a real-life (albeit in a gym) lead climbing situation.

As for Redpoint's "gumby clip", Ipersonally try to do the same thing, but I've never actually seen or heard of a draw popping free b/c of it. I think it's probably a throwback to when old-skoolers regularly would clip pins and fixed gear with a single biner instead of a draw.

[Jay]

I also figured you might as well just do it the right way, what excuse do you have not to: "Turning my wrist 180 degrees is inconvenient" just doesn't cut it for me.

Ummmm..... If you seriously need to turn your wrist 180 degrees to clip a draw that's facing the "wrong" direction, then YOU'RE the gumby!

[Barnacle Ben]

"loosin draws due to walls out of my skill level" That is why you go to the hardware store and buy some $1.50 mallions. Mine is rated at 1500 pounds, but Rick Webber said it is only rated at that because they wanted a good safety margin, and it should hold about 5 times more than that.

If you bail off of an entire draw you are a super gumby anyhow, why not just take a carabiner off of the draw and bail off of that, now that is some problem solving.

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If you can lead 5.10 indoors then Practice Wall sounds like a waist of your time, but I think there is a 5.9+ and a 5.10B that you could toprope without having to lead there.-' Slabalito, TBD II, and Low Exposure might be sandbagged, or at least real tricky if you aren't used to slab. Dragon's Mouth 5.6 there has major rope drag, so top roping with a group on that route is a bad idea, especially with the sharp edges near the top. I thought Crescendo 5.8+ was real easy, and the overhung finish wasn't bad at all considering it's all jugs. Crescent Moon 5.9+ is Sandbagged IMO, I have done 5.11A moves that I thought were easier. There is a 5.4 and a 5.6 at practice wall, and if you are just trying to develop a good lead head you can climb those, and they make great top rope routes for kids. Ai Bang Mai Fa Kin Ni 5.7 is pretty hard for a 5.7, only because it is so crimpy, it's pretty pumpy for a 5.7.

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Bruise Brothers:

Redeye brew is a 5.8, it's hard to find and has a ledge that might trip you out, but it's a pretty easy climb.

CH4 and A-Beano are the perfect routes if you plan on top roping with a group since there is no rope drag whatsoever.

The Offering has non stop ledges so it can be scary, but it was my first lead and at least it is one rest after the other. If someone top ropes it you should switch rope ends and have them unclip as they go since it traverses so much, it would make for a nasty dangerous swing if they didn't do it like that. If someone goes to toprope after them make sure they reclip all of the biners back in as you are lowering them.

My second lead climb was Send Me On My Way, a 75 foot 5.9-, but it's more like a 5.7 jug haul with a ton of rests.

If you get done with all of that you can always head to Sunnyside and climb the 5.9 there, Kokopeli's Dream. It looks awesome but beware the book says it starts with technical slab, and even has some laybacking(a technique that requires a good amount of arm strength).

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The Great Wall:

This area makes for a great day, I have done it twice now. Take the approach to The Hideout and climb the 5.8 International Route of Pancakes there to warmup, it's real short and easy. Then folow the trail and go NorthWest to the Great Wall and stick clip Glory and Consequence 5.7 and climb the start of it, traverse over to Legends of Limonite 5.8 and climb it. After that climb Glory and Consequence, it is really pumpy for a 5.7, but the moves are easy, and if you get too pumped you can just take a hang halfway up. I once tried to warm up on it and had to take a hang on it, but I just Redpointed it this last weekend. After that you can climb La Escalada 5.6, it is pretty pumpy once you get halfway up due to the open handed crimps and odd foot placements. Make sure to let the person down from where they started, I let my friend down over the lip and he slipped and the rope slip and it put a small gash in it because of some sharp features located just above the lip. The 5.10A there looks easy, but I have heard it is really pumpy, so heads up on that.

After you climb there you might want to work up enough courage to go back to The Hideout and climb the 100 foot 5 star 5.10B Boltergeist. The start is hard, and so is the crux, but the crux is insanely well protected, and so is the whole route. It has tons of rests and is great for the beginner 5.10 leader(according to our bible, I mean guide book). The view at the top out makes it well worth it. I Onsighted it, and didn't even think I was ready for leading 5.10's, so ya just do it. After that if you still have time you should follow the trail South East and walk over to Indy Wall and climb Face Up To That Arete, a really fun 5.8. Make sure to pass up Dance of the Druids 5.9 unless you are some kind of slab expert. I did onsight it, but it had me sweating bullets, after you get above the ledge there is no good handholds, and it's just a big balancing act.

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There is also a sort of new wall called Animal Crackers, just walk towards The Boneyard and when you see a sign on the left that says "Boneyard" take that trail. It is a steep trail and sucks if it's hot, you will come to a fork and a sign that says Boneyard and points right, this is where you go left, and you will immediately come up to a small slab wall. There is a sheet of paper there with all of the routes and their grades. I think there is a 5.7 with two sets of anchors, getting to the second set is harder than getting to the first IMO. There is also 3 5.8's if I'm not mistaken, but they are tricky slab, and if you aren't used to slab just forget about this entire wall, because chances are you will find it nerve racking. I heard Abby Gabby Doo over at Boneyard is Sandbagged and not even worth climbing, so heads up on that, but there is two good 5.9's there from what I have been told.

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I hope that answered your question

EDIT:

p.s. Don't forget to worry more about not Z-clipping, back-clipping, nose-clipping, and getting the rope behind your leg then actually taking a lead fall. O and be sure to always face the gate of the biner in the opposite direction you will be traveling(that is referred to as a gumbie clip or gumbie clipping). EXAMPLE: If you are clipping the quickdraw, and plan on climbing up and to the left to your next bolt, the gate of the biner should face right when you make that clip.

Wow good looking, I didn't even know about it. Your comment had me cracking up: "Sweet line, its like eureka's slightly more badass older sister".
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... hp?id=2242

Ya most of the votes said it was a 4 star route, but Eurika is still ahead at 4.01 vs 3.64 for Boilerplate.

Ya, they should at least copy that post and add it to MuirValley.com with a link labeled: "Good Beginner Trips in Muir". That was way too much typing for just a random post in a forum, but I figured other gumbies might be able to use it as a guide as well. If the question ever comes up again just direct them to this topic.

I know what back clipping is, I just thought there was two different ways to backclip, hence why I said "which is also referred to as".

You are right though, I have no idea where I got that from, I thought it was from my Black Diamond biner instructions, they say not to do it, but they didn't give it a name. The Petzl catalog also has an illustration for "Rope path through a quickdraw", and they didn't give it a specific term either. Well I think it's about time to name it, from what I have seen it's always the gumbies doing it, so lets just call it a "Gumbie Clip", or "Gumbie Clipping" if they have done more than one like that. I have seen gumbies clip every draw incorrectly like that.

Well I edited the post with it's new title.

I had to edit that post and point out that I did say the words "which is also referred to as". I should have said "I know what the traditional term for backcliping is". Well in my defense the whole reason you point the gate away from your direction of travel is to prevent the rope from coming unclipped in a backclipped like fashion. I have tested it, and it is quite easy for the rope to come unclipped like that.

I have even seen experienced people gumbie clipping, one guy was teaching his friend how to lead climb and I pointed out that the gates were facing the wronge direction and he didn't even know what I was talking about. No wonder you are supposed to learn how to climb from an expert, and not just one of your "experienced friends". Well at least the guy did warn his friend when he backclipped, but then the guy ended up clipping the rest of my bolts on the dual anchor 5.7 climb at Animal Crackers and I had to wait 15 minutes for them to clean their route and the other half of mine before I could finish my route, and so I think that makes it ok for me to hate gumbies, but I will still constantly point out what they are doing wrong for Webbers sakes.

Yes it matters, I already said that both petzl and black diamond tell you how to place a draw, and I have personally tested(and demonstrated to others) this phenomenon of how the rope can come unclipped like that.

Do you think anyone in this forum is more experienced than Black Diamond or Petzl... this is why reading a lot about how to climb safely might be better than just only learning from one of your "experienced" friends.

I am good at starting controversies on here, and it might make me look like a troll, but o well. I am sure about this one, but feel free to argue away, especially if you didn't even know not to do this. I swear I think a lot of climbers in the red just think you are supposed to clip it the most convenient way, ie: how the hanger is positioned, or in your case not having to turn your wrist 180 degrees, but that doesn't make it the right way.

The fall rating on a rope has nothing to do with when you should retire it, my rope is rated at 13 fall factors of 1.85, and Mammut recommends retiring it after 52 days worth of sport climbing on it, or whenever it no longer becomes stretchy, or if it has sustained a fall factor of 1 during a 15 foot fall, or if it has a spot where the sheath is so worn that you can see the core, or at least has insane damage done to it.


Quote:
"and any cams/quickdraws you may have dropped on the ground."


Well I have learned enough in the vertical caving world to know that a dropped caribiner, draw, ascender, or cam can have an invisible hairline crack in it that can only be detected by ultrasonic jaz, and I can only assume that your life isn't worth the $5 - $50 to replace it according to your post.

You climb your way and I'll climb my way, you know the way recommended by the people who make the gear you are climbing with.

So all of the vertical cavers I know are wrong, please explain your findings, I am dying to know what source it is that said it's ok to keep using a piece of gear after it has been dropped...

I am sure there is some details I missed, like it has to have fallen so many feet on to solid rock in order to have a possible hairline fracture, or are you saying that its always ok to use no matter how far it's fallen on to solid rock?

I will have to ask my caving buddies where they obtained their information from. Some of them have been vertical caving for decades, so I find it hard to believe that they are all wrong about dropped gear.

I believe that it's possible they could be wrong, because maybe they are only going on word of mouth, and not actual scientific testing. I need to read Onrope 1, I bet it addresses this subject.

Well I have read a lot of car modding magazines that have addressed fractures in the head that can only be detected by ultrasonic tests, and so I find it hard to believe that this phenomenon isn't possible with climbing gear, I mean do you honestly believe that all hairline fractures can be found by just a microscope... I don't.

You, sir, are a hyper-hypo.

You may have taken too much forearm Crank before posting on this thread.



Please, never exceed the manufacturer's daily recommended intake of forearm Crank before posting on redriverclimbing.com.

[gripster]

hyper-hypo, hehehe, haven't heard that descriptor in a long time!

[rhunt]

Rhunt, I have in fact seen a rope pop free from a back-clipped draw, in a real-life (albeit in a gym) lead climbing situation.

Question, was the wall dead vert, slab or overhanging?

Ok one so far, any one else?

[ReachHigh]

Ok one so far, any one else?

The rope coming out of a back-clipped draw is easy to demonstrate. I've been able to show the rope clipping the gate at the crag several times by simply back-clipping then whipping the rope out.

[rhunt]

Yes easy to demonstrate/replicate but does it really happen in real life? I am not suggesting that we ignore the "rule" and clip any way we want. I am just looking for a reality check - does back clipping ever really result in a roping unclipping in a real life climber falling(outside)situation?

[krampus]

Beaner direction....no freakin way it matters. A back clipped rope popping out however, though I have not seen it personally (I don't climb with people who back clip) really could happen. It won't happen every time as it depends a lot on rope placement, direction of fall, location of fall (meaning lateral position relative to draw) and user ignorance. But to say its not a concern is not realistic. Again, I have not seen it personally, I have friends who claim to have, but there are many situations, especially while trad climbing where physical intuition say that its an extreme possibility. While sport climbing I believe that slab would be more dangerous than overhung shit, and I would suggest that it is more likely with a short draw than a long one. I would gladly do the experiments with someone and to make it interesting I will place money that my predictions are correct. (if your serious, there are many side bets on particulars to be made too )

[bcombs]

I would gladly do the experiments with someone and to make it interesting I will place money that my predictions are correct. (if your serious, there are many side bets on particulars to be made too )

I'm definitely in on this one. Can we increase the wager based on which bolt is to be back clipped? Like 30 on the 1st, 20 on the 2nd, 10 on the 3rd, etc... The wager gets smaller as the liklihood of a broken ankle is lessened.