RRC Archives

cletuswilcox wrote:Shear- Are you aware that pd's and climber behavior/impact were some of the deciding factors in the closure at roadside? So there's nothing wrong with aluminum biners being fixed on some of the most traveled routes in the world and it's simply a matter of climber initiative to keep the fixed gear safe to climb on. That would be nice. Unfortunately a majority of the user groups here at the red werent taught to inspect the gear they climb on. That must not be a popular clinic within the climbing gym industry these days. Are you going to be contributing your time and effort to fundraise, inspect and maintain pd's here at the red because that will be a monthly reality if aluminum gear goes up. I think the unsafeness of aluminum pd's is about the only thing that there is consensus on.

Cletus...no where did I state that I thought aluminum PERMADRAWS were safe...I think using aluminum as a permanent fixture on a wall is both short-sighted and not even remotely considerate of anyone else climbing the routes. I was merely responding to the Lurkists statement that he will remove any draws up on a route that he wants to climb...giving no time frame as to how long is "acceptable" or even "safe". I agree wholeheartedly with what you say here. I agree that FIXED aluminum draws aren't safe, aren't good for the crag, and put everyone else in a position to clean up a mess that doesn't have to be. However, aluminum project draws (my distinction between pd's and fixed draws is the top biner being a quick link as opposed to just a regular bolt-end carabiner), can be safe if people use some common sense and scrutinize gear and remove as they see fit.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

So must make this one statement about these meeting. Yes people are attending them. But some of the people on this forum have not attended. These people are to remain nameless, ( the last meeting was held 3 blocks from there house) but I want them to understand. They are blowing things way out of line on this forum and are not able to understand what has happened at the meeting, because they were not there for themselves. Before they go on here name calling and threatening people it might do them some good to attend on of the meeting held. I.E. the one in December they might come to an understanding that the removing of the draws were not a personal attack on them or on anyone for that matter, they might also be able to gain a little bit of knowledge and a better understanding of what the community wants. ( OH and work is not an excuse the meeting was announced several weeks before)

Hey stalker, how do you know where I live? Freako. Did you come and peak in my windows too? Now I'm afraid.

shear wrote: So let me get this straight...every climber going to leave draws overnight needs to have a rack of steel permadraws to leave up on whatever route they are planning on trying more than one day? that's bullshit, not the community/sport/rrg norm, and completely asinine to expect of the greater community. First, there is nothing wrong with aluminum biners, they have been used for years and are completely safe if taken care of. Second, not everyone has a huge budget and can afford a rack of 20 dollar biners, to expect that is ridiculous and you know it.

Yup. Or feel free to buy 20 dollar quickdraws when your whole rack goes missing because you abandoned your gear.

shear wrote: Police the gear, sure...if it's worn, take it down, if it's not, climb on it...what's so hard about that? There is NOTHING wrong with leaving draws up...it's a standard that's been set in place and not even the Red can change that. If everyone sets out to protect themselves, ie. checking gear regularly, removing worn gear, etc...things will work themselves out. Policing an entire region like the red is an uphill battle with no summit in sight.

Yes leaving gear is wrong as it is more unsafe than using your own gear. "If everyone sets out to protect themselves" is ambitious at best. Should people be doing thing? Yes. Does everyone do this? NO! So unfortunately, it is in EVERYONES best interest to make everything SAFE as possible. And you are right about the policing situation. But you can't police left gear either. But the easiest and SAFEST solution is to say any gear left is abandoned and if you see gear left, it's booty. I don't understand what is difficult about this. While I am not totally against Permadraws and if I had my own wall where the only people that climbed there were myself and a select group of competent human beings, I would totally have steelies on every bolt. But we have to face the fact that with the increase in numbers, comes the increase of uniformed climbers. I have to say something to a group of gumbies almost every weekend that I spend in the Gorge! Unfortunately, we as a community of competent and responsible climbers have to give up some forms of convenience to keep those who aren't safe.

...Safe. lol

SCIN wrote:Hey stalker, how do you know where I live? Freako. Did you come and peak in my windows too? Now I'm afraid.

Hopefully you are able to capture the IP of the creep and reverse stalk them

SCIN wrote:Hey stalker, how do you know where I live? Freako. Did you come and peak in my windows too? Now I'm afraid.

Matt will be so jealous.

So there is a meeting in December. This time, show up. Dustin, I know you had no reason to miss the last one. Grad School? Please. Michelle? Work? Lame... I came in scrubs WITH my five year old straight from work.
You think it is a self selecting group of rule makers preaching to the choir? You want a voice? Sac up and show your face at the next meeting. I do not want to hear your mealy mouth whining that, " Those mean people are making rules that cramp my style." Even Joe Haynes came. Jesus, how unempowered can you be?
Come to the community discussion.

fyj434 wrote:So must make this one statement about these meeting. Yes people are attending them. But some of the people on this forum have not attended. These people are to remain nameless, ( the last meeting was held 3 blocks from there house) but I want them to understand. They are blowing things way out of line on this forum and are not able to understand what has happened at the meeting, because they were not there for themselves. Before they go on here name calling and threatening people it might do them some good to attend on of the meeting held. I.E. the one in December they might come to an understanding that the removing of the draws were not a personal attack on them or on anyone for that matter, they might also be able to gain a little bit of knowledge and a better understanding of what the community wants. ( OH and work is not an excuse the meeting was announced several weeks before)

Oh please, I listened for as long as I could. Almost the entire meeting. Heard a bunch of whining about 5.10 climbers taking too long on 5.12's at the load that shouldn't be there in the first place and blahblahblah. The biggest problem with being backed into to having an opinion about something ridiculous is that you end up taking a side and forming points to back up that opinion. If your not careful, you wind up forgetting that you didn't care in the first place, and start making things personal. Hell, I lost a fiance because I couldn't figure that one out.

The reason the meeting is a waste of time is because most people don't care, they like it the way it is, or don't see PD's as the main cause in the larger safety/crowd control issue. Hence, the majority at the meeting didn't vote. So now some overly aggressive minority that does care is trying to 180 some long standing climbing ethic (that ultimately will not improve safety or remove crowd) for everyone else who just wants to climb. I don't want to spend another 2 hours of my life listening to people bitch about this shit, but decisions might be made so fuck if I don't have too go, and have a god damn opinion. Now I'm pissed

quit visiting this site and you'll never even know this conversation is taking place...problem solved.