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Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:49 pm
by cletuswilcox
Dustin- The fact that gear left on the wall is considered abandoned was not decided at the last meeting although it was discussed. That was established long before you showed up.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:50 pm
by climb2core
cletuswilcox wrote:Shear- Are you aware that pd's and climber behavior/impact were some of the deciding factors in the closure at roadside? So there's nothing wrong with aluminum biners being fixed on some of the most traveled routes in the world and it's simply a matter of climber initiative to keep the fixed gear safe to climb on. That would be nice. Unfortunately a majority of the user groups here at the red werent taught to inspect the gear they climb on. That must not be a popular clinic within the climbing gym industry these days. Are you going to be contributing your time and effort to fundraise, inspect and maintain pd's here at the red because that will be a monthly reality if aluminum gear goes up. I think the unsafeness of aluminum pd's is about the only thing that there is consensus on.
Lets be clear... it is not the PD's that are problem regarding the Roadside closure. They didn't sneak out in the middle of the night and hang themselves. It was climbers that did it.
Get rid of most PD's except on the steep and very steep.
Spread the word... Place project gear in good shape. Be responsible for removing your gear when you are done projecting. Don't leave your gear for weeks on end if you are not going to be actively projecting.
Once a year, yank the mank. Cletus, SCIN, and Dustonian can share belays.
This isn't that hard.
This is getting so ridiculous. It isn't that hard.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:52 pm
by Meadows
cletuswilcox wrote: Michelle- If I'm not mistaken the accepted and agreed upon ethic at the red is that any gear left on the wall is considered abandoned gear and is subject to removal (pd's, project draws, etc.) and that this is for liability concerns.
Note: that "ethic" is actually more of a legal matter for protecting land owners.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:53 pm
by climb2core
cletuswilcox wrote:Dustin- The fact that gear left on the wall is considered abandoned was not decided at the last meeting although it was discussed. That was established long before you showed up.
You forgot the other half of that ethic. People leave "abandoned gear" alone when it is obvious that they are still projecting it or it is in good shape.
That is why it would be good once a year to set a date that everyone knows about as Yank the Mank. It would help identify the truly abandoned gear.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:57 pm
by cletuswilcox
Dustin- I forgot to add that deeming left gear as abandoned is the ethic of the RRGCC and it applies to the cliffs on land that they bought. That dosent mean that every left draw WILL be removed it means that every left draw CAN be removed.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:59 pm
by cletuswilcox
Ian- I dont think anyone will be stealing or removing project draws unless the draws are a hazard.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:03 pm
by aburgoon
I would like to address a misconception that seems to be common here: PDs are not the global norm. I lived and climbed in Europe for over two years, and came across very, very few of them. Leave your draws (aluminum, steel, whatever) on a popular 7c in Ceuse and if they are hanging from the top anchors the next day, count yourself lucky. Same was true for every other area I visited in France, Italy, Austria, Germany, and the Czech Republic. Most Europeans generally hang their draws on a warm-up lap, and take them down at the end of the day. You may have seen different practices in the videos with big name (usually american) climbers, but they are an exception rather than the norm. Just wanted to clarify that point.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:12 pm
by climb2core
cletuswilcox wrote:Ian- I dont think anyone will be stealing or removing project draws unless the draws are a hazard.
I didn't think you were planning on taking any.. but wanted to make sure it was understood that you were not implying abandoned gear was now fair game for booty.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:21 pm
by Artsay
aburgoon wrote:I would like to address a misconception that seems to be common here: PDs are not the global norm. I lived and climbed in Europe for over two years, and came across very, very few of them. Leave your draws (aluminum, steel, whatever) on a popular 7c in Ceuse and if they are hanging from the top anchors the next day, count yourself lucky. Same was true for every other area I visited in France, Italy, Austria, Germany, and the Czech Republic. Most Europeans generally hang their draws on a warm-up lap, and take them down at the end of the day. You may have seen different practices in the videos with big name (usually american) climbers, but they are an exception rather than the norm. Just wanted to clarify that point.
Hey Andy - what climbing areas are you talking about? Were they steep walls/difficult routes? When we climbed at the Frankenjura, Germany there were draws on some hard stuff (13's). Fixed gear is also left on the steep routes down at El Salto, Mexico:
http://www.drtopo.com/submitted/elsalto.pdf "Most harder routes have fixed draws, please leave them there".
It's an interesting discussion and I'm interested in understanding more about the different world crags, local ethics, accepted practices, etc. and building a collection of information to learn from. Anyone who knows this stuff, feel free to send me info and I'll document it.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:27 pm
by pigsteak
I like this from the same document Michelle.
"Please adopt a strict Leave No Trace policy when visiting the areas. Bring everything out
that you bring in, and I do mean everything. Primitive camping is tolerated in the arroyo,
so please be kind to the environment."
Guess draws are indeed native to the landscape nowadays....lol