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Shear, very untrue. That's a fact.

SCIN wrote:Shear, very untrue. That's a fact.

Ok. I'll admit I haven't been there this season and have just talked to people, out of towners, who have visited the Red. None of those guys have complained, so I was just going by that...

It does seem that this has divided the community though, and not in a good way. That is easy enough to see, yes?

Lets not count that it is the end of November...if the weather had sucked all fall there would be no crowd problem. Soon Miguel's will be closing and The Red will be empty for another Winter except for the locals...the crowds including members of The Crew will go to warmer climates for climbing and bouldering there they will not complain about the crowds or the draws...

tutugirl wrote:Lets not count that it is the end of November...

+1 Can't argue with this perspective.

climb2core wrote:Lets be real, PD's are here to stay as are project draws.

tutugirl wrote:...the crowds including members of The Crew will go to warmer climates for climbing and bouldering there they will not complain about the crowds or the draws...

There ya go. Can this thread be over now?

dustonian wrote:Approximately zero? Of the rebolted routes, we had just checked them all during the summer, and many were brand-new steel PDs from ClimbTech. The safety thing is a lame attempt to excuse that big stinky fart back in October. Still, I personally feel removing the aluminum stuff off the 12- routes on the right side of the Undertow was a good idea. Removing the new steel stuff on the steeper routes was plain stoopid.

Dustin- You're wrong. Climbtek's were in the minority of the draws pulled from the undertow. Quite a bit of the non-climbtek steel draws were junk. Safety was a motivating factor in removing the pd's as I stated in the many posts I have made on this website. I can see how you and Ray missed that seeing as neither of you have been constructive in the slightest.

Michelle- If I'm not mistaken the accepted and agreed upon ethic at the red is that any gear left on the wall is considered abandoned gear and is subject to removal (pd's, project draws, etc.) and that this is for liability concerns. This is Hugh's point I think.

Hilarious. "Minority". That's like "Hey I stole a bunch of cars but most of them were junk so don't get pissed if I took a few good ones". Keep it coming man. I'm loving it.

cletuswilcox wrote: Michelle- If I'm not mistaken the accepted and agreed upon ethic at the red is that any gear left on the wall is considered abandoned gear and is subject to removal (pd's, project draws, etc.) and that this is for liability concerns. This is Hugh's point I think.

I disagree with this "ethic" as do most others. Just because you had one arbitrary meeting of self-appointed rulemakers does not mean anything was either "accepted" or "agreed upon." Encouraging the wholesale removal of fixed gear in sport climbing is contrary to international consensus and an extremely untenable, foolish, and dubious precedent to support.

Shear- Are you aware that pd's and climber behavior/impact were some of the deciding factors in the closure at roadside? So there's nothing wrong with aluminum biners being fixed on some of the most traveled routes in the world and it's simply a matter of climber initiative to keep the fixed gear safe to climb on. That would be nice. Unfortunately a majority of the user groups here at the red werent taught to inspect the gear they climb on. That must not be a popular clinic within the climbing gym industry these days. Are you going to be contributing your time and effort to fundraise, inspect and maintain pd's here at the red because that will be a monthly reality if aluminum gear goes up. I think the unsafeness of aluminum pd's is about the only thing that there is consensus on.