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Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:55 am
by caribe
pigsteak wrote:climbing back when trad actually mattered....then perhaps these new folks plugging gear would realize they are way behind the times, sort of like the people taking down draws are way behind the times.
.....
pigsteak wrote:why does climbing have to boil down to the lowest denominator all the time? what happened to the experience of climbing, and not just the sport wienie mentality of sending with the least possible effort and disruption to their schedule?
Piggly, you contradicted yourself and answered your own question in one shot. That was beautiful and I hope it was intentional. Yes, climbing seeks the lowest common denominator because everyone follows the crowd and does whats easiest, most comfortable, least committing and teaches the next generation to do the same. Water does not run uphill because it lacks two things, volition and a backbone.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:09 am
by caribe
pigsteak wrote:climbing back when trad actually mattered..then perhaps these new folks plugging gear would realize they are way behind.
I am going to keep pluggin gear and escape some of this ass fuckery. Plugging gear only has to be important to me to have a good time doing it. Partners at the same crag can do sport while I do my thing (be it trad or sport) and we can trade catches. So in modern times if you are not leaving PDs over Hell's half acre you are a fucking Jack Kerouac? If you are not part of the PD conversation at the Lode spraying about your 13.x, no man is your brother and you're subversive to unity? Today trad is considered the defining work of the postwar Beat Generation that was inspired by jazz, poetry, and drug experiences.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:08 am
by Artsay
the lurkist wrote:btw Michelle, I asked Cletus and his friends. You didn't send them threatening emails like you did me. Why was that? They were the guys who actually TOOK THE DRAWS! So you targeted me? I can't decide to either be flattered or threatened by your special attentions. Thanks all the same.
Hugh - you have been the only one vocal about policing gear and taking a personal stance on this. I don't agree with this and want to be completely up front with you and not talk about you behind your back. Don't remove my gear. I'm not sure how I can be threatening? I'm a 5'3" woman and you're almost a 7' man.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:08 am
by dustonian
Artsay wrote: Hugh - you have been the only one vocal about policing gear and taking a personal stance on this. I don't agree with this and want to be completely up front with you and not talk about you behind your back. Don't remove my gear. I'm not sure how I can be threatening? I'm a 5'3" woman and you're almost a 7' man.
I bet you could take him, Michelle... he doesn't have much in the way of muscle mass and his center of gravity is up at like the armpits.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:22 pm
by pigsteak
art, you get me.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:28 pm
by climb2core
pigsteak wrote:art, you complete me.
awww, aren't you two sweet.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:06 pm
by shear
the lurkist wrote:Dustin is mistaken in that I wanted to or did leave gear. Negative, good buddy. I don't climb at that cliff frequently enough to leave gear there.
Frankly I am with Dustin. The problem is with the mank. Unfortunately the crew did a poor job of discriminating, and if they had only removed the shitty gear and left the PD no one would be mad at each other. I think the thing to do is leave the low easy ones (the easy 12s or anything easily cleanable) hangable and stripable and use the PD of the routes they are needed for. Fewer fixed routes with state of the art gear are more easily monitored.
The mank is the problem and the mank occurs because well meaning people, like you Michelle, leave your gear and then abandon it/fali to clean it for a few seasons then we have faded draws and ginsu biners. That is the problem that PDs were supposed to be the solution to. And according to Cletus and one of his buds, over half of the gear removed was shite. So, if we are to believed Cletus et al, shockingly, shit still happens on the Undertow Wall.
Why am I'm being such a mean contrarian, Michelle? Is that your question? Because I don't want to climb on your gear, and you can't make me. But I may want to climb on the route your gear is on. So unless you hold the deed to the route or the cliff, please do not insist that I use your gear. So lets compromise, if you insist on leaving your gear up a route and don't want to clean it, please leave up the community standard of PD with steal biners. Kay? Then maybe I will be reassured that at least the gear dwelling is not some ginsu biner ready to shread my cord.
And fuck you Ray. Whatever your score is on redriverAnu, and just because you are the high lord priest guide book author with all ripply muscles and a mean arm tattoo, and just because you have your own secret cliff, and just because I have been out for a while, and just because I am old and weak and stiff and smell bad like an old man in a nursing home, make no mistake, Ray. I am coming for you, my friend. I am going for the gold. I will do your projects. I will best your score. I am BACK!
So let me get this straight...every climber going to leave draws overnight needs to have a rack of steel permadraws to leave up on whatever route they are planning on trying more than one day? that's bullshit, not the community/sport/rrg norm, and completely asinine to expect of the greater community. First, there is nothing wrong with aluminum biners, they have been used for years and are completely safe if taken care of. Second, not everyone has a huge budget and can afford a rack of 20 dollar biners, to expect that is ridiculous and you know it.
Police the gear, sure...if it's worn, take it down, if it's not, climb on it...what's so hard about that? There is NOTHING wrong with leaving draws up...it's a standard that's been set in place and not even the Red can change that. If everyone sets out to protect themselves, ie. checking gear regularly, removing worn gear, etc...things will work themselves out. Policing an entire region like the red is an uphill battle with no summit in sight.
I hope you "locals" can come together on these issues...because this looks and reads like you're a divided state...with quite a bit of anger and animosity. I've been keeping up with what's happening there because the Red has always been on top of it's game in regards to access, fundraising, and community. This year is looking quite a bit different, with top tier cliffs closing down, unilateral decision-making, and a lot of childish name-calling...seems like it's time for some of you to either step down or change up your attitudes. Come together or the Red is going to be a miserable place to be.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:04 pm
by pigsteak
hmmmm, so maybe the crowds will leave if it is miserable at the Red. boom..mission accomplished by the krue.
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:12 pm
by climb2core
Lets be real, PD's are here to stay as are project draws. (Except for Michelle's if Hugh is strong enough to get up her projects)
Lets work on finding acceptable ethics for there use and safety...
Issues to solve:
1.) PDs become sharp with time too. If the community is going to put them up, how do we make sure they are monitored and replaced with steel when needed? Maybe Increase awareness that they can be sharp too, and start selling them at Miguels. People could buy a couple to keep on hand if they find a sharp one while climbing.
2.) What routes get PD's? How is that determined? My thoughts are the less routes with PD's the better. I am a 5.12 a/b climber and I have had no problem cleaning ANY routes I have ever gotten on at the Red. The steepest without PD's being Twinkie. It was a bit of a pain, but no big deal.
3.) Accountability for aluminum Project Draws. If you put them up, they better be safe. Also, how can we increase accountability for taking them down?
Maybe an end of year inspection and yank the mank by volunteers?
Re: PDs at Lode
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:24 pm
by shear
pigsteak wrote:hmmmm, so maybe the crowds will leave if it is miserable at the Red. boom..mission accomplished by the krue.
Funny thing is that the "crowds" aren't complaining at all...it's everyone who "cares". You are all the ones complaining...