RRC Archives

Artsay wrote:
Definition:
"Bullying - the use of force or coercion to affect others, particularly when habitual and involving an imbalance of power."

If I'm interpreting what has been written/stated correctly, Hugh Loeffler twice said that he would take down draws left on routes. This is bullying and threatening. I don't care if they are not stolen. Until the community agrees on a standard, no one person or small group should mandate behavior others must follow. Would a climber "break somone's windshield" if they took their draws down? No, but the point is that is how this situation caused climbers to feel and I think it's important that we try to learn from this for the future.

Sorry, but leaving your (potentially unsafe) draws (as I have no way of knowing) up on a route and then being upset if I remove them is bullying then. The SAFEST way (barring chopping all bolts) is to NOT leave draws up. Period. Right now, I'm for chopping bolts and having everyone place their owns bolts, by hand on lead. Your conveinence is NOT safe and therefore shouldn't even be considered as an option. Like you said yourself, after someone has their draws taken once, they'll seriously think about leaving gear again. And that's how it should be, because that is what is safe.(r)

The actions of the "crew" definitely opened up some necessary discussion which will continue (the next meeting is planned for mid-December). I don't think anyone on either side disagrees that abandoned gear is becoming an issue and we, as a community, need to deal with this. Investing in steel PDs was one way some climbers thought to be a good solution and tomorrow that option may very well be replaced with another more sustainable option (which may be daily draw removal, only time will tell).

What is in question is the manner which it was handled and that a small group took in upon themselves to mandate a standard and police the community. It's pretty evident that a lot of bad came from this and it makes me sad how many people are divided and have disdain for each other. The basis of both sides is that folks cared enough to take time and energy to deal with this because they sincerely want to make the Red a better, safer climbing area. I hope we all can just move forward and see that as the common denominator and put the hostility aside.

Ha, Michelle... Read your hubbies post. Originally this was all about crowd control. But now the story has changed, albeit it is good that this is being discussed.

Michelle,
For the record and in front of every nobsniffing choad chuffer (or whatever Dustin said) I want you to know that I really don't want your draws. I have my own. If I want draws I will go buy new ones. Please, do not loose another night of sleep or have another moment of angst worrying that I will take your draws. I am truly sorry that you felt that I would take your property. While I might have indulged in petty crime in my distant past, I would like to think I have grown beyond it.
While I do not want your gear, I also do not want to climb on yours or anyone else gear. Please do not leave your gear on community routes. Put your gear up on routes while you are climbing there, and then take them down before you leave. If gear is left on a route and the owner is not there, and I want to get on the same route, I will change out the gear for my own and leave it someplace safe, most likely on the anchors.
I really don't understand why you or anyone else would take exception to this notion. By you leaving your gear on a route and expecting it to be left in place is asking other climbers to either climb on your gear or not climb on the route. Are you suggesting that because your gear is on a route that route is effectively closed to others climbing on it? I know you don't feel that way, so why do you insist on others climbing on your gear?
Sorry, but I don't want to climb on your draws. Don't leave them on routes if you don't want them removed.

No worries there Lurk. Michelle has already done the 10s at Roadside and it's closed anyway.

Hanging & cleaning draws is for gumbies. Haven't you guys traveled anywhere in the last 5-10 years?

Seriously tho, we should just do what the first guy to climb 5.15 in the RED says, and he already said fixed draws are cool. The rest of us are just pathetic chufflords.

Can I ask a question that might not have been answered so far in the 30 pages. If the reason was to remove potentially unsafe draws, how many of the draws removed were deemed "unsafe"? As in, how many were sharp, tattered, etc that could have caused a safety hazard?

Approximately zero? Of the rebolted routes, we had just checked them all during the summer, and many were brand-new steel PDs from ClimbTech. The safety thing is a lame attempt to excuse that big stinky fart back in October. Still, I personally feel removing the aluminum stuff off the 12- routes on the right side of the Undertow was a good idea. Removing the new steel stuff on the steeper routes was plain stoopid.

the lurkist wrote:If gear is left on a route and the owner is not there, and I want to get on the same route, I will change out the gear for my own and leave it someplace safe, most likely on the anchors.....Don't leave them on routes if you don't want them removed.

I'm not sure what gives you the right to feel like you are the climbing police?

Like I already said...don't touch my gear, Hugh.
We have to respect each other's co-existence in this big world, following standards that have been defined by our community. That means following the same standards here, at the Red, just as you would elsewhere. I don't believe you would strip draws and leave them on anchors at another crag so that means your behaviour is one of entitlement and turf guarding. Why are you choosing to be this way?

It is odd, I remember back in October when Hugh said he had "put draws" on his project at an undisclosed "secret crag" in the Red. Apparently it is ok there but not at the Lode. He also continues to fail to differentiate aluminum project draws from the dozens of brand new community-purchased steel PDs removed (& rehung) on the Undertow left. These were installed, after all, to replace years of aluminum detritus on that section of wall in a pragmatic (& actually genuine) effort to increase safety at the crag.