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Ashtray "While I liked your technical treatment of bolting (i do not wish to discuss a few particulars that I disagree with as it isn't relevant to the conversation)"

Ashtray we have heard that one before. A statement like this was directed toward all the unwashed idiots in netland collaboratively developing a little old operating system called Linux.

If your fears: "but I strongly feel that it (Weber's online bolter guide) tacitly encourages people to bolt who shouldn't be bolting" were justified we would have people who should not be bolting going out and buying hammer drills and spending money on the hardware to put up all the shit that you may or may not deem worthy of climbing. I don't think a lot if any of this is going on.

It seems like you want to control information about how to do it right because what we will end up with is a bunch of dedicated morons, who should not be doing it, going out and doing it wrong? I appreciate the fact that you are a product of higher ed. Perhaps I misread you. Could you please clarify exactly what you meant in your post # 397? It seems self-contradictory.

We're looking at this all wrong. Since the preferred view is that bad bolting makes a great route, Buster or someone needs to write a "How to Bolt Guide" that tells people how to do everything wrong. That should result in some killer routes, and maybe even a dead bolter. What could be cooler than climbing on a route so special it killed the bolter? Wow, that would completely bring climbing back to its roots and make it real again. It would be the 1950's all over again when real men climbed.

Oh new arch enemy.

bolting is not part of the normal climbing experience and it should stay that way! it is not up to me (nor anyone) to decide who is qualified. but this glorifies and formalizes the process regardless of the disclaimers.

and regarding linux, the comparison does not hold. i am not against bolting but can't you see where this is going? christ, every square inch will be bolted before this is done. think 5 /10 years out. i have been at cliffs like this and it sucks. there is some kid reading this and hitting up his mom for a drill right at the moment. now look at kenny. he has been climbing since he was a kid (a loud kid nonetheless) and he came up through the ranks. he was a climber first, then he bolted. same with piggie.

and piggie is still loud. and he smells too.

Saxman wrote:

charlie wrote:If that chossy block at the top of the route that has special connotations for the FA

There was no note on the rock that said the FA loved that rock and that it was integral to the route. There is no mention of the rock or any type of fun importance as in "have fun pulling around the loose rock" in the route description. The rock not being there doesn't make the route easier or harder. If you think leaving a rock that can pull off and hit one's belayer is cool, special, or somehow gives a route a legacy, then your ability to rationally discuss important issues is in serious doubt. ....

You're so clueless it's painful to watch. You'd know that was indeed the case if you asked anyone who knew the FA.

It's not your route, and yet you felt the need to damage it "for the good of others?" You make any effort to contact the FA? You ask Tina? You think they were just lazy when they didn't trundle it? You think your FA expertise trumps the Bronough family? Johnny and Alex would be pissed if they knew some Jerry altered that route.

Saxman wrote:.....As the Vice-President of the coalition, fiercely defended positions that hold little regard for your fellow climbers

My contempt is purely for poseur jerrys that think they are qualified to act without respect for the FA or without a minimum of experience, it is not for my fellow climbers.

There are tons of clean, easy, accessible routes in the gorge. You don't like the choss, no problem. Walk on and find something you can handle, don't damage it for those of us that do and for fucks sake DO NOT EVER alter a route without talking to the FA party.

I have never criticized Muir Valley publicly. I challenge anyone who feels I am anything but consistent in my opinions and what I say in regard to these things.

Where are these untrained non-apprenticed bolters going to bolt? The only place one can bolt now is the the PMRP or Muir and I don't see either one allowing a gumby to bolt without first having an apprentice period.

you guys are all so right. i am wrong. nevermind and i am sorry. continue on o' wise climbers.

So now you are saying that whenever someone finds a loose rock on a route they have to pull out a cell phone and call the FA and ask for permission to remove said rock? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard!!!!! You really believe this? You really are completely irrational. What happens 75 years from now when rocks loosen up, who do you call then, the FA's grandchildren? I honestly can't believe you think a climber is supposed to instinctively know that a loose rock found on a route was loose at the time it was bolted and is therefore an integral part of the route. For all the climber knows, the rock cracked loose during the last freeze thaw cycle which let's see, happens every year at every temperate crag in the world!!! What happens when a route was bolted by a non local? What about Terry's routes? Who does the climber call then? Take your own advice. Sack up and get over it.

I'm giving up climbing. Since all the new routes are too safe, the old routes shouldn't be updated, and loose rocks are now sacrosanct, I quit.

Too much safety is the homogeny that takes any spice out of climbing.