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Wes wrote:Heh, let's just say that Diggler knows of what he is speaking. And, if I remember correctly, he has the honor of being one of the few to break a 'biner during a sport climbing fall, so I would guess he has some "real word" experience as well.

I'm gonna back Kdelap up here a little bit. I'm not at all trying to say that Dig doesn't know what he's talkin' about. I don't know him personally so I can't talk anything against him. I'm just backin' K up on his words since Dig's gotten his good share. K's, by far, one of the smartest people I know. (well, as far as climbing goes, at least.) He's taught me quite a bit of what I know. Should I ever question anything he tells me, he has a legit. reason for it, & not something like "just because" or "that's just what I was taught", he can go into depth and explain to me exactly "why" or "how", and be very confident in it. As far as "real world" experience goes, I know he has done sport, trad, bouldering, alpine, ice, all over the country, and outside of it as well. He definatly knows who he is, where he's going, and where he's comin' from.

Just a reinforcement, Dig, I don't know you personally, don't know your experience, or anything. Just backin' up my buddy a little bit.

Diggler - if you test climbing gear 5 days a week, you must have direct or indirect business relationships with gear companies. What are they? Why didn't you disclose them before providing your 'opinion' of BD's gear?

You contend that BD's cams are "pieces of crap". If you test climbing gear professionally, please provide specific, technical examples of the low quality of the current products. Please don't shy away from technical language. Please cite standards (e.g. ASTM, CE, etc.)

Again, for the current BD cam design/production, please cite specific field failures, as this is where 'the rubber meets the road', and is critical information for assessing the value of the BD products relative to competitors.

(Please single click the "Submit" button when you post your reply, thanks.)

As far as I'm concerned Diggler has the credibility to back up his statements, not that my opinion counts for anything other than my world view.

So, you're asking for advice on the internet. Here's my advice......

Interview people you trust in person, have them show you what is good, why they like it, and why they don't like the things they don't like. Do this in person, half the people in this thread I wouldn't trust for shit.

So, my advice for you, free of charge...... Try and be less retarded so you don't solicit advice from strangers on the internet. More often than not the people preaching their views on the intardweb are not the people with a clue. Those people have better things to do than humor the gumbies on a message board.

That said.....

BD, Wild Country, Metolius. Those are the 3 SLCD manufacturers to get started with. Everything else is second tier. Aliens rock, but not as a primary choice for building your rack. Borrow pieces, clean routes, then decide what you like. Also, a hybrid rack is best. Start building w/ one manufacturer and then supplement with other brands to fill in the empty spaces.

If that's not clear enough, buy a crash pad.

Charlie: This is the internet dude. Stop being reasonable and start throwing gasoline on the fire! In other words, stop making sense and giving out helpful advice!

Original Poster: Start reading about cams. Ask questions. Go out and second a lot more. Oh yeah, and check out the various threads on the tardnet about Aliens:) Take all advice with a grain of salt. Especially mine.

kdelap: I would love to jump on your side here and tell everyone about your job and experience, but you've reminded me too many times how many days outside you've had this year while I was hobbled. Paybacks a bitch mofo! Haha.

Kids: Seriously, diggler sounds like a really experienced guy, and I know kdelap is too... sounds like you guys got off on the wrong foot. Kiss and make up for Daddy.

I'd start with 2 pink, and 2 red tri-cams. Cheap and effective (tape the webbing a little to make them stiffer and easier to place).

The go with Black diamond cams. They are the best all around cams hands down. Get sizes .4 up to #4. That should get you started. If you like cracks, double/triple up on .75, #1, and #2.

For smaller cams I think metolius and aliens are the best. Although I just bought some of the small bd cams (C3 I think they're called) and they seem very nice so far.

Seriously though, don't overlook tri-cams. The big sizes are worthless, but the smallest 2-3 of them are wonderful gear that you'll get tons of usage out of, and they are no more expensive than a quickdraw.

It's all about holding power, I can go into details of cam lobe angles but just know this... If a cam company raves about size of their range, they are giving up holding power. It's a scientific fact that the lack of angle, the wider the renge (BD) The increase of the angle (DMM, Wild Country,Aliens...) has significantly more force rolled into the point of contact, therefore resulting in less range but waaaay more holding power. More info to come...if anyone gives a $#!T!

Might be important if the cam is small. I bought into it,a whole set of Metoliuos, but I prefer the BD for anything bigger than fingers,no contest.

You are correct SIR; It's preference! It's what you feel is important to you! For me it's holding power; I was on the whole "kick" of..."Cams don't pull if you set them correctly, and biners don't break" I was wrong on both counts. I watched a seemingly good placement pull, and I experienced a carabiner failure. Do what you feel is best! Live and Learn!

Shamis wrote:I'd start with 2 pink, and 2 red tri-cams. Cheap and effective (tape the webbing a little to make them stiffer and easier to place).

The go with Black diamond cams. They are the best all around cams hands down. Get sizes .4 up to #4. That should get you started. If you like cracks, double/triple up on .75, #1, and #2.

For smaller cams I think metolius and aliens are the best. Although I just bought some of the small bd cams (C3 I think they're called) and they seem very nice so far.

Seriously though, don't overlook tri-cams. The big sizes are worthless, but the smallest 2-3 of them are wonderful gear that you'll get tons of usage out of, and they are no more expensive than a quickdraw.

Stop with the freak'in tri-cams already. Why do you think you have to jury rig them to start with? Because they require three hands to place. I would venture to say that you will never get better placements out of a tri-cam as you would any name brand cam or stopper. But if you aren't going to get real cams and you want to lead Motha by all means roll the dice.

Seriously though, overlook the tri-cams. The rest of the stuff about BD is dead on balls accurate.

O yeah, one more thing, I also agree to disagree with Diggler despite his 208 days of climbing a year and the fact that he has pulled cams and broken biners.

JR wrote: I would venture to say that you will never get better placements out of a tri-cam as you would any name brand cam or stopper. But if you aren't going to get real cams and you want to lead Motha by all mean roll the dice.

Gonna have to disagree... There are some places where tricams work perfectly and simply nothing else will work. If you own tircams and love them, you will learn not to overlook those placements... which are all over Motha BTW...