important question
So have you ever taken advantage of extra long draws to make a clip easier? That's essentially the same thing as stick clipping a bolt that forces you to meander way off route to clip. By using extended draws you're bringing that clip to a less difficult position. Were you guys hanging the third draw when you were doing Wild Gift that way? Someone else could come along and say your send wasn't acceptable if you weren't. They're personal boundaries. I'm surprised Mandy didn't kick both your asses for being stupid.Roentgen Ray wrote:If I have to clip more than the first bolt, then I don't attempt the red point. If I'm too afraid to do the climb, I don't do it until I'm ready for it. I climbed Wild Gift with Acer, and he soft decked with me belaying. I gave him a good catch, but he blew the third and hit his ankles. I felt bad about what happened, but I knew that he knew the risks on that clip. If you blow the third, you are likely to get injured. The two of us ended up sending the route, neither of us ever considered clipping the third from the ground. If you clipped the third, then you didn't really do the route. The clip is part of the climb, it's part of the experience of having climbed that route. Sort of like the roof over the bulge on the Gift at Longwall. Climbing the route from the ground up, clipping along the way is part of the experience of climbing that route. It's a 12a I'm very proud of having climbed. There are other 12a's that I barely remember climbing. There is something to be said about the experience of having the confidence to climb a route that you know is dangerous. It's scary, but thrilling. It's not for everyone, and most of the time it's not for me. But I remeber those moments when I had the confidence to climb those routes.
Yo Ray jack dynomite! Listen to my beat box! Bew ch ch pff BEW ch ch pfff! Sweet!
-Horatio
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the lurkist
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Since there is no standard on how high the first bolt on a route "should" be, what if the equipper of 50 Bucks had decided not to put in the first three bolts, effectively making what is now the fourth bolt, the first bolt. The prerequiste for the climb would be either a very long stick, or a huge set of..., well I don't need to elaborate on that point for anyone here.
The point(s) being
1. The sport is fairly artifical, and we play only by the rules we impose on ourselves, either personally or as a community.
2. While redpointing, by definition is to lead a route from the ground (and hence any stick clipping would invalidate a redpoint under a strict interpretation) we accomodate stick clipping in the definition, becuase stick clipping prevents potential injury that may be inherent in the early portions of some routes. This is on a route-by-route basis. For 50 Bucks maybe not clipping the 4th is generally accepted as being too dangerous and so it should be "allowed", but on other routes, say Wild Gift, clipping the fourth would probably not qualify as leading/redpointing.
It will be nearly impossible to come up with a hard-and-fast rule (except for the "no-stick-clipping" ethic) which will be applicable to all routes, since the nature of individual routes varies so widely and is something we have very little control over.
The point(s) being
1. The sport is fairly artifical, and we play only by the rules we impose on ourselves, either personally or as a community.
2. While redpointing, by definition is to lead a route from the ground (and hence any stick clipping would invalidate a redpoint under a strict interpretation) we accomodate stick clipping in the definition, becuase stick clipping prevents potential injury that may be inherent in the early portions of some routes. This is on a route-by-route basis. For 50 Bucks maybe not clipping the 4th is generally accepted as being too dangerous and so it should be "allowed", but on other routes, say Wild Gift, clipping the fourth would probably not qualify as leading/redpointing.
It will be nearly impossible to come up with a hard-and-fast rule (except for the "no-stick-clipping" ethic) which will be applicable to all routes, since the nature of individual routes varies so widely and is something we have very little control over.
It's simply the flow of the line. For me, if climbing over and back to clip a bolt is the crux then I'll skip it (if it's up high) or stick clip it (if it's low enough and all the cool kids are doing it too).
4th bolt on 50 Bucks could safely be skipped if anyone is having trouble doing the route and wants a quick solution. You're not doing a 13a that way though but if you want the difficulty of a route dictated by the placement of the bolts then have at it.
I don't think anyone would disagree that if the difficulty of a route comes from having to traverse left to clip a bolt, then back right to climb again, then it's not a quality route and the bolt should be moved (or skipped) and the grade dropped.
Tough clips are different. If the holds are really small and it's tough to clip the bolt because of that then I don't think it takes away from the quality of the line. You just have to be stronger and clip, or again, skip.
What if velcro was used to temporarily hold a long quickdraw within reach of the natural flow of the line? That's done in the New a lot I hear. Is that any different than pre-clipping a bolt? It still brings the bolt within reach.
Sport climbing and ethics don't mix very well. Go do trad if you're concerned about ethics.
4th bolt on 50 Bucks could safely be skipped if anyone is having trouble doing the route and wants a quick solution. You're not doing a 13a that way though but if you want the difficulty of a route dictated by the placement of the bolts then have at it.
I don't think anyone would disagree that if the difficulty of a route comes from having to traverse left to clip a bolt, then back right to climb again, then it's not a quality route and the bolt should be moved (or skipped) and the grade dropped.
Tough clips are different. If the holds are really small and it's tough to clip the bolt because of that then I don't think it takes away from the quality of the line. You just have to be stronger and clip, or again, skip.
What if velcro was used to temporarily hold a long quickdraw within reach of the natural flow of the line? That's done in the New a lot I hear. Is that any different than pre-clipping a bolt? It still brings the bolt within reach.
Sport climbing and ethics don't mix very well. Go do trad if you're concerned about ethics.
Yo Ray jack dynomite! Listen to my beat box! Bew ch ch pff BEW ch ch pfff! Sweet!
-Horatio
-Horatio
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Roentgen Ray
- Posts: 227
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SCIN, I realized this morning that I'm full of shit. I never sent Wild Gift, I was always too pumped out of my mind after clipping the third bolt and had to hang. I just could never get that route on lead. The mini-decking episode occurred on Strevils at the second (or third?) bolt when the route was a little damp from the constant KY summer time funkness. Sorry for the misinformation.
Quod me nutrit, me destruit.
