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That's cool, but how does the rock behind the cut fare? Are there any saw marks in the rock - depending, of course, on how close one chops the shaft of the glue-in?

Toad wrote:That's cool, but how does the rock behind the cut fare? Are there any saw marks in the rock - depending, of course, on how close one chops the shaft of the glue-in?

It's pretty easy to camo a hole with or without a bolt stub. We'll demo some techniques in the April 14 Route Dev. Clinic.

One problem with installing glue-in bolts with epoxy is that the area around the bolt can get smeared with epoxy, and this can be more unsightly than a single hole left unplugged. It's not bad when cleaned up with acetone, but it is still difficult to keep from making a mess. We're working on it.

Rick

weber wrote:.One problem with installing glue-in bolts with epoxy is that the area around the bolt can get smeared with epoxy, and this can be more unsightly than a single hole left unplugged. It's not bad when cleaned up with acetone, but it is still difficult to keep from making a mess. We're working on it.

Rick

You mentioned a 'super duct tape' earlier - if this was a woodworking situation where glue squeeze out was a problem, I would mask around the hole with tape before applying the glue, let it dry/cure, then remove the tape and clean up the squeeze out. (might be slightly more difficult while hanging under a roof as opposed to standing on the floor of my basement...)

tomdarch wrote:

weber wrote:.One problem with installing glue-in bolts with epoxy is that the area around the bolt can get smeared with epoxy, and this can be more unsightly than a single hole left unplugged. It's not bad when cleaned up with acetone, but it is still difficult to keep from making a mess. We're working on it.

Rick

You mentioned a 'super duct tape' earlier - if this was a woodworking situation where glue squeeze out was a problem, I would mask around the hole with tape before applying the glue, let it dry/cure, then remove the tape and clean up the squeeze out. (might be slightly more difficult while hanging under a roof as opposed to standing on the floor of my basement...)

Great idea!

It wouldn't take much time at all to put a masking layer down first.

The procedure would simply be to apply a tape mask around the hole (maybe 3" x 3") and cut a hole in the tape the size of the bolt hole. Then, we add the second layer of tape, cut a slit over the hole, insert the glue and bolt, and allow the overflow of glue to squeeze out between the tape layers (instead of between the tape and rock face). When cured, pull off the tape off and voila -- clean rock around the hole. (in theory) We'll try it out next time we install a glue-in bolt.

Rick

I am not sure what the goal of these pull tests are but here is something to keep in mind:

All of this pull testing is interesting but completely unrealistic for rock climbing. What is being tested is a static system; there is not a scenario in rock climbing that is static.

There is essentially no way to develop a standard for bolting in rock, there are too many variables (hard, soft, depth of the patina, moisture, time of year, the general “topography of the rockâ€

[quote="bentley"]...There is essentially no way to develop a standard for bolting in rock, there are too many variables (hard, soft, depth of the patina, moisture, time of year, the general “topography of the rockâ€

Bentley makes many excellent points about the complexity and variables in the climbing system. I think it is an excellent idea that climbers strive to be knowledgable about all aspects of the climbing system. I have had extensive training on entering both hazardous environments and mining environments where, like climbing, a mistake or misjudgement can quite easily lead to bodily injury or death. Both the OSHA & MSHA certification training involve 40 hours of classroom & practice with referesher courses required to maintain your certification. In climbing how much technical training you get and where you get it from is completely up to the individual.

That said, we have plenty of empirical evidence in Red River Gorge that our bolting methods and materials are good considering the number of bolts out there, the amount of sport climbing we see, and the lack of any catastrophic failures as far as I know. That, however, does not say that there is no room for improvement and this is how I see the purpose of the Weber endeavor. Similar testing has been conducted in South Africa, also in soft sandstone, to make comparisons between different anchor hardware setups.

Certainly this bolt testing is not science, where we can replicate very similar results with each test. But it is engineering, where we can determine a worst case scenario and beef up to provide some factor of safety. I'll never forget what one of my Strength of Materials profs said freshman year, "Back in the olden days when they made a bridge out of a log, if the log broke they said well we better use a bigger log next time."

I have worked with a material that has very inconsistent properties but have been able to establish a reasonable specification through testing and data analysis. That material would be clay and the "product" a recompacted soil liner for a landfill liner system. Each clay sample when tested would have a different unit weight, optimum moisture content, grain size, and permeability. Yet through building a simulated soil liner test pad, a specification could be developed that would guarantee the performance of this aspect of the landfill liner system when constructed. The bolt testing when looked at from the engineers standpoint makes perfect sense.

To any non-geeks I apologize for this post.

Whoa. You guys are making me wanna trad climb again.

first time in years i cant argue with 5.2TR

If it wasn't for geeky gear heads traddies would still be pluggin' hexes instead of SCLD's.