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Paul3eb wrote:on a different note, would someone with a more legal background have some insight on this: if requesting money to climb on private property negates the "recreational use" ideas of immunity from legal liability, does requiring a cabin rental to climb on the land open them up to the liability aspects?

i was wondering the same thing

Corporate Whore wrote: on a different note, would someone with a more legal background have some insight on this: if requesting money to climb on private property negates the "recreational use" ideas of immunity from legal liability, does requiring a cabin rental to climb on the land open them up to the liability aspects?

Well, these things are always subject to debate in the legal world, but I could certainly argue that it does subject them to liability. But, there are certainly arguments in the opposite direction to be made as well. And, who knows what a court might decide. The case law seems to tend to favor the landowners (IMO). So, the typical legal answer is.... maybe, maybe not. If I were them, I would certainly have a release signed and warnings posted.

Per KRS 411.190....
(4) Except as specifically recognized by or provided in subsection (6) of this section, an owner of land who either directly or indirectly invites or permits without charge any person to use the property for recreation purposes does not thereby:

(b) Confer upon the person the legal status of an invitee or licensee to whom a duty of care is owed; or

(c) Assume responsibility for or incur liability for any injury to person or property caused by an act or omission of those persons.


(6) Nothing in this section limits in any way any liability which otherwise exists:

(a) For willful or malicious failure to guard or warn against a dangerous condition, use, structure, or activity; or

(b) For injury suffered in any case where the owner of land charges the person or persons who enter or go on the land for the recreational use thereof, except that in the case of land leased to the state or a subdivision thereof, any consideration received by the owner for the lease shall not be deemed a charge within the meaning of this section.

Thanks Mark and Cathy. Your land, your right. Not sure what others don't understand about that simple equation. When they own, they can choose as well.

Kipp

I have to respond to some of our family decisions. People do not live here and therefore do not understand. I have allowed climber's to climb on the property for eight years. The first three to four years, the climbing community was smaller, more friendly. They helped my father-in-law, stopped and talked to the owners, and respected the wishes of the owners. These climbers still exist and I know them. But when The Red became mainstream, there has been an influx of more climbers. The more I see, the more inconsiderate are the people. This crag has become numb to what allowed the climbing in the first place.

I raised hell about disrespect just before Roctoberfest. People were not abiding by the Rules. They still do not, so we closed sport and traditional climbing. What I feel climbers should think about is (1) why should I even have to post these rules, they are simple and just plain respect for your neighbor. If I have to post these rules, where does the problem lie. (2) What if this was your property. I used to get people that would be courteous, property friendly, and last but not least: human.

Just a couple of examples: Weekend before last, there was a dog tied up all day beside the van under the No Dog sign.

This past week: The worst impact was on Wednesday. I was showing friends around the property (Our Bridesmaind in our wedding, here husband and here 14 year old daughter). There is a female climb to the left of Paranoia pissing in my yard, under the rock house, in front of all of us. First of all, I put in my yard a Port-o-let, for the climbing community. This female was too damn lazy to walk down the hill and use it. Secondly, she is pissing under the rock house where the rain will not remove her sweet smelling urine (respect for the property). And lastly, I did not need to walk up on this with my friends. What can you say: "Oh that is just a climber, just ignore it" (Respect for owner and family).

Then there was a different female climber that let her dog out to go do it's business in my yard and put it back in her van before she was going to climb. She was dismissed from the property Then there was another group of climbers who brought their dog and let it out that same day to do it's business in my yard. What part of No Dogs do people not understand.

Like I say, I do not have to get angry or have friends and family embarrassed by the actions of climbers. I know there is a great community out there. Maybe, this community can or maybe they cannot educate young, inconsiderate people. I do not have to wory about it, I tried since this spring.

With that said, it is not an economic desicion. It is a decision based on human decency.

The other issue was a guy that was guiding on my property this weekend. He did not have the courtesy to ask, and they did not donate. I was there. He asked his clients (5 or 6 of them) if they had money to donate. They said no. That tells you something about guides educating their clients to the rules of a private crag. Someone ended up in thowing in spare change they had. So for a couple of quarters this guy made money and was quite arrogant with me, the owner

I am tired of typing, but I can go on. So the individuals that do not see what is going on should open their eyes. Maybe, because they do not own the property, and this the mind-set of being privalaged (sp?) instead of having the privelage to climb creates this thought process.

I do not have to get angry anymore.

My Best, and I still love people. I am a firm believer in Treating Others and You Want To Be Treated. To the girl who pissed in my backyard in front of my family and friends, may this come back to you ten-fold. Mark

well said mark. its your land you have to do what you think is best for your business and family. its a shame that basic freaking courtesy had to be posted in the first place along with threats to close climbing and even worse the issues kept happening and made threats turn to actions. just takes a few to ruin it for everyone. we will still be down to visit. take care and enjoy your winter break !

Mark & Kathy,
Thanks for your generosity, kindness and patience. Esp your patience over the last few years.
I hope your decision is an eye-opener for many of the disrespectful climbers that seem to multiply every year.
Similar frustrations are happening at other privatley owned areas. It's (past)time for a wake up.

Thanks Mark for posting what you did. You're right that you do not have to defend yourself or your actions. The community supports you. Still, it is shocking to hear how people were still not respecting the rules. Thank you for giving us our chances.

I will miss climbing at Torrent. I will not be giving any business to the restaurant or the cabin rentals. Why would I support a private business in the gorge that has turned its back to the climbing community? I sincerely hope that future events do not support Mark either. Any events put on by the RRCC should support businesses that support climbing, Miguel’s and RRO. I for one will be supporting Miguel’s and RRO.

I would like to Thank Miguel’s and RRO for supporting the climbing community.

Mark, it is unfortunate that you have closed torrent to climbing. In my opinion no climber should support the restaurant or cabin rentals. If you have done so much for the climbing community why are you turning your back now?? I have seen major improvements since you brought up your concerns.

fray21 wrote:I will miss climbing at Torrent. I will not be giving any business to the restaurant or the cabin rentals. Why would I support a private business in the gorge that has turned its back to the climbing community? I sincerely hope that future events do not support Mark either. Any events put on by the RRCC should support businesses that support climbing, Miguel’s and RRO. I for one will be supporting Miguel’s and RRO.

I would like to Thank Miguel’s and RRO for supporting the climbing community.

Mark, it is unfortunate that you have closed torrent to climbing. In my opinion no climber should support the restaurant or cabin rentals. If you have done so much for the climbing community why are you turning your back now?? I have seen major improvements since you brought up your concerns.

WOW!!

Even after the man explained himself, you still feel this way? I don't understand how you can be so harsh.
RRO & Miguels are basically restaurants and genrally have a larger crowd with people to regulate the actions of others. Both proably face their problems. But comparing them to Torrent isn't far to Mark.

well, my first response to chriss and fray21 was anger and shock at the selfishness.

however, they are entitled to their opinions and good for them for having the guts to state them even though they are in oposition to the rest of us.

so, now we have at least 2 climbers who won't be taking up space in the line for BBQ. that's a good thing.

i'll be interested in seeing how many selfish climbers try to sneak onto the property to climb despite the closure. i never ceased to be amazed at how "me" focused all of us are.