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why is this supposed to stay quiet or between two people? hasn't it been tried already, personal one on one conversations? and hasn't that not really worked all that much?

if people aren't afraid of anything, why not air it out? it's only words after all, right? if we're not afraid of ground falls or loose bolts, what can someone else's opinion really do to us?

with sexual abuse cases, people always say, "don't stay quiet! speak out!"

with physical abuse cases, people always say, "don't stay quiet! speak out!"

with verbal abuse cases, people always say, "don't stay quiet! speak out!"

with this case people say, "shut up and don't tell me about it.."

why?

for the most part, i bite my tongue. it's been, for me, a matter of protection for myself and another in my life. personally, i'm more apt to go about things silently, to work in the background. i've avoided conflict whenever possible.. and i can't figure out if it's ever gotten me anything i've wanted or needed. call it pacifism or passive or whatever.. sometimes i feel like all i end up with is a belly full of bad blood.

do i think artsay's right? i'm in no position to be the judge of that. do i think she's said things that are accurate and that should be addressed? yes, i do. i think she's on the mark, actually.

we're all willing to confront someone with an addiction or similar. we even call it "helping". in fact, doing it in a public or group situation is encouraged. otherwise, the person feels that the confrontor might be the only one, might be the only one to see things that way. why do we feel differently when it's a personality or "other" problem? why do we get hush hush about it? sometime people need to see a group of people who all feel the same way to say to them selves, "hell, can all these people be that wrong?" sometimes it takes a friend to tell you exactly how it is in no uncertain terms.

do i consider terry a friend of mine? of course. does he consider me a friend? i don't know for sure but i'd be honored. has he upset and hurt many of my friends? yes, he has. i don't think that's what terry wants at all. i fully believe that terry is a great guy with a good heart and the best intentions. i think, though, he struggles with things as all of us do. he's a self-proclaimed steppenwolf. it's from a book by herman hesse. in it, the main character acknowledges that there are two personalities within himself: the man and the beast (wolf). the man in him wants to be social and wants love, friendships, respect.. all the things of a "civilized world". but the beast in him comes out some times and viciously attacks each of these ideals and rips apart any and all social graces and conventions.

h.h. in steppenwolf wrote: and the steppenwolf has two natures, a human and a wolfish one... in [harry's] the man and wolfe did not go the same way together, but were in continual and deadly enmity. one existed simply and solely to harm the other... for example, if harry, as man, had a beautiful thought, felt a fine and noble emotion, or performed a so-called good act, then the wolf bared his teeth at thim and laughed and showed him with better scorn how laughable this whole pantomime was in the eyes of a beast, of a wolfe who knew well enough in his heart what suited him, namely, to trot alone over the Steppes and now and then gorge himself with blood or to pusue a female wolf. then, wolfishly seen, all human activities became horribly absurd and misplaced, stujpid and vain..

anyway, i've exceed my allotted space. i'm done for now. just know that the steppenwolf believes that he's condemned to this fate.. he has to be shown the absurdity of his state from the outside..

more steppenwolf wrote: so too, to come to the point, is the steppenwolf a fiction. when harry feels himself to be a were-wolf, and chooses to consist of two hostile and opposed beings, he is merely availing himself of a mythological simplification. he is no were-wolf at all... it was merely in the hope of being more easily understood with the assistance of a delusion, which we must now endeavor to put in its true light.

pablo.

Maybe a good psychiatrist and/or therapist is in order. Before you pounce, everyone needs a therapist but most people settle for untrained family, friends, hairdressers, and their local bartender who don't know how to address problems that need more than a little simple advice.

I'll listen....for a beer or two or three.

and paul, thanks for sharing what was on your mind. i think for many folks, what they know about these situations is hearsay, second hand, rumor, inneundo, etc...

it then becomes larger than life. most people are not directly connected to the main issues, but only hear a buddy grumble that someone else was grumbling...know what I mean?

(sorry, sandy..I said I'd stop talking, but Paul made me. 8) )

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Thanks for sharing, Paul.

This whole thing just kills me because I view Terry as someone in our community who could offer so much good in so many ways. He's extremely knowledgable and experienced and could be seen as a great leader. It's the way in which he's choosing to express his knowledge and experience that are causing problems.

The MV vs. MPRP feud is a myth. In reality, it is more of a one-way barrage by one person and his disciples. Unwarranted and inaccurate criticism. And for reasons I cannot fathom. As many of you know, the Muir development folks have contributed significant time and money to MPRP functions. But, we are growing weary of the downright silly critiques we are receiving in return.

Bolting routes, especially in Corbin Sandstone is an ever-evolving science. Be very careful not to assume that everything you hear from self-proclaimed experts is gospel. NONE of us is an expert in this craft. And don't regard "years of experience" as more credible than "number of routes" of experience.

We welcome any and all advice, when presented in a respectful manner, and are happy to share our research and test results with others desiring safer climbing.

Rick

Artsay wrote:Thanks for sharing, Paul.

This whole thing just kills me because I view Terry as someone in our community who could offer so much good in so many ways. He's extremely knowledgable and experienced and could be seen as a great leader. It's the way in which he's choosing to express his knowledge and experience that are causing problems.

I agree with this but Terry is NOT the only problem in the Red. While his behavior may be glaring, problems like this are never one sided.

Terry just sent me an abusive PM. The only bit of significance I could filter from it is that, in response to my asking him (in my original post) if it's true that he was banned from Miguel's and begged to be allowed back in, he proclaimed that he is unaware of being banned from Miguel's and doesn't beg.

I guess he doesn't deny the other stuff.

BTW, if anyone wants to read up on how to use a GriGri without squishing your rope flat (clip your biner through your belay loop instead of of your harness loops), please see http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices/GR ... 4601-I.pdf Apparently Terry is still upset about a discussion we had about this six years ago.

as far as I know, he wasn't banned.