Cliff,
Actually I was in Phoenix hanging out with one of theose unethical bastards who started climbing at the gym. Not only did he show me a great time but I caught him picking up trash along the trails used by climbers and non - climbers alike. He also showed me how to get my butt kicked on various types of rock. While in the area we visited two gyms because of all things it was raining in Phoenix - just mt luck. After returning today I read your post and you make a good point. If you learned to climb at HHeights you were trained by an experienced climber and the local community is VERY VERY enviromentally aware. Chances are you felt a lot of pressure to act the same. I felt that was the case at one of the gyms in Phoenix also. The second gym had a whole different atmosphere and seemed to be just take the bucks and turn them loose.
My friend climbs at this gym since it is closest to where he lives. On one occasion a young climber who my friend knew casually from the gym was climbing near us at Pinnacle Peak. He was 30 feet back from the rock belaying and sitting on a big rock. My friend spoke to him about getting into a better position so as not to be dragged into the rock - the kid basically told him to buss off. So things go both ways. Lots of folks - lots of gyms - lots of different ways of doing things. I will encourage the guys at the gym to post a little something about good outdoor ethics.
Climbers' Code of Ethics
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quicksilver
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:58 am
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Cliff Heindel
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:57 pm
"Mutual respect" of what? If not of others' opinions, then of what?Cliff Heindel wrote:Ethics suck for no other reason than it means accepting that someone else's opinion matters.
Alternately, climbing is 'Freedom of the Hills,' to use an existing tag... As a culture, climbers have, perhaps, shared values including freedom from other people's opinion. I just hope that 'esthetically,' we can agree that climbing outside of gyms is valuable, unique, and worth preserving BECAUSE there is an environment of mutual respect and admiration.
Accepting that someone else's opinion matters is a fundamental element of this mutual respect you advocate preserving. It doesn't mean we necessarily have to agree. And I do respectfully disagree with your logic.
Cliff, you find that ethics "suck" because "it means accepting that someone else's opinion matters." Are these "Someone elses" people like Mark and Kathy Meyer and Liz and me?
You have every right to to reject our code of ethics, which is woven through our Guidelines and Rules, because you don't want to accept the fact that our opinions matter to you.
Just don't practice your personal brand of "Freedom of the Hills" ethics at Torrent Falls or Muir Valley.
Rick
We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. - Randy Pausch
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
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Cliff Heindel
- Posts: 190
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Cliff Heindel
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:57 pm
Let me start with a lame apology: I should just let this thread quietly sink to the bottom of the forum, RIP. Maybe it will despite me.
I thought I made it clear that I supported Rick Weber's effort to encourage people to live and voice their values and ethical standards. I would appreciate more feedback to this point with other's interpretations of the established thread. But Rick's last post discourages me; and, not having received a response seeking some explanation on the actual points of his post, I question whether
his approach to behavior modification is working and whether it needs re-examination.
Before I specifically address the points of contention within the 'ethics' thread, there is the looming specter of personality and ego. I wish to minimize if not completely eliminate this element from the discussion, if any, an hope others will make the same effort.
Sine I have not worked out the specifics of embedding quotes piecemeal into text.....
Rick wrote:
' "Mutual respect" of what? If not others' opinions, then of what?
Accepting that someone else's opinion matters is a fundamental element of this mutual reapect you advocate preserving. It soesn't mean we necessarily have to agree. And I do respectfully
disagree with your logic. '
My apologies. I thought it obvious I was beginning with a plausible assumption that people without common courtesy must ipso facto believe. Thus, (here is the 'logic' if, like me, you were interested in Rick's respectful disagreement with mine and what logical fallacy he was adressing)
it would be an illogical conclusion to advocate for "mutual respect" unless I BELIEVED THAT OTHER'S OPINIONS MATTERED.
Now, backtracking, as Rick inverted his syllogism, I did not "find" that "ethics suck", I assumed it as mentioned previously. For perspective, note I also proposed a counter assumption.
To the point of "You have every right to rejact our code of ethics....because you don't want to accept the fact that our opinions matter to you"
And the clincher..."Just don't practice your personal brand of ..ethics at..Muir Valley"
Just so incredibly disappointing. Rick, I regret that you felt so frustrated and angry about my post. I never implied nor stated that I rejected you ethics. (Please, if anyone else
thinks I did please show me where/how). Additionally, I don't think that FROM THAT POST ALONE you can know much if anything about my personal brand of ethics.
And lastly, if anyone else thinks this is fun, stay away from me.
I thought I made it clear that I supported Rick Weber's effort to encourage people to live and voice their values and ethical standards. I would appreciate more feedback to this point with other's interpretations of the established thread. But Rick's last post discourages me; and, not having received a response seeking some explanation on the actual points of his post, I question whether
his approach to behavior modification is working and whether it needs re-examination.
Before I specifically address the points of contention within the 'ethics' thread, there is the looming specter of personality and ego. I wish to minimize if not completely eliminate this element from the discussion, if any, an hope others will make the same effort.
Sine I have not worked out the specifics of embedding quotes piecemeal into text.....
Rick wrote:
' "Mutual respect" of what? If not others' opinions, then of what?
Accepting that someone else's opinion matters is a fundamental element of this mutual reapect you advocate preserving. It soesn't mean we necessarily have to agree. And I do respectfully
disagree with your logic. '
My apologies. I thought it obvious I was beginning with a plausible assumption that people without common courtesy must ipso facto believe. Thus, (here is the 'logic' if, like me, you were interested in Rick's respectful disagreement with mine and what logical fallacy he was adressing)
it would be an illogical conclusion to advocate for "mutual respect" unless I BELIEVED THAT OTHER'S OPINIONS MATTERED.
Now, backtracking, as Rick inverted his syllogism, I did not "find" that "ethics suck", I assumed it as mentioned previously. For perspective, note I also proposed a counter assumption.
To the point of "You have every right to rejact our code of ethics....because you don't want to accept the fact that our opinions matter to you"
And the clincher..."Just don't practice your personal brand of ..ethics at..Muir Valley"
Just so incredibly disappointing. Rick, I regret that you felt so frustrated and angry about my post. I never implied nor stated that I rejected you ethics. (Please, if anyone else
thinks I did please show me where/how). Additionally, I don't think that FROM THAT POST ALONE you can know much if anything about my personal brand of ethics.
And lastly, if anyone else thinks this is fun, stay away from me.
'really ?' -fluffy
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captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
Since "Freedom of the Hills" was invoked I pulled out my copy (3rd ed., 1974) and offer the follwing quote:
Ethics find their ultimate warrant for "thou shall" and "thou shall not" in the ideals of the individual and these ideals ... must find their expression in the individual's acceptance of his own limitations and sense of responsibility to the climbing community of today and tomorrow.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
