Guys,
Most of them don't want help, and the deed is usually planned out well in advance,there is nothing that changes their minds, and they don't even take into consideration what they are leaving behind or what it will do to those left. (I know this from personal experience-my brother died of suicide it will be 3 years this June). Also I think the fact that since 90% of climbers out there are male also might have something to do with it.
Climber suicides
I'd like to add the possiblility that our society's impoverished and failing welfare state has a great deal to do with the level of depression and anxiety suffered by Americans. I also contribute our high crime levels to the same lack.
This has been a very interesting thread but here's a problem with the statistical analysis that has been going on: these climbers who died are generally young. Deaths in the general population are mostly from people getting really old and dying. How many of these 15 deaths were from natural causes and old age? I bet that number comes up way skewed from the mean just like the percentage of suicides. Also remember the obituaries in climbing mags are by no means going to mention every single climber. How many of the original free climbers from before WWII have died without mention because they weren't famous or exceptional?
Hopefully we will all die of old age without pain, comfortable, and surrounded by love. Regrettably few of us will. But suicide is a really shitty choice, period. I've lost three good friends to suicide and it hurts everyone left behind. But we cannot judge those people because we don't know how bad it was for them. But we can know that it hurts us more than they ever realized.
The end-of-life-the-pain-is-unbearable-and-will-only-get-worse-I've-said-goodbye-so-let's-turn-out-the-lights kind of suicide is completely different but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. That's a whole different flaming thread.
This has been a very interesting thread but here's a problem with the statistical analysis that has been going on: these climbers who died are generally young. Deaths in the general population are mostly from people getting really old and dying. How many of these 15 deaths were from natural causes and old age? I bet that number comes up way skewed from the mean just like the percentage of suicides. Also remember the obituaries in climbing mags are by no means going to mention every single climber. How many of the original free climbers from before WWII have died without mention because they weren't famous or exceptional?
Hopefully we will all die of old age without pain, comfortable, and surrounded by love. Regrettably few of us will. But suicide is a really shitty choice, period. I've lost three good friends to suicide and it hurts everyone left behind. But we cannot judge those people because we don't know how bad it was for them. But we can know that it hurts us more than they ever realized.
The end-of-life-the-pain-is-unbearable-and-will-only-get-worse-I've-said-goodbye-so-let's-turn-out-the-lights kind of suicide is completely different but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. That's a whole different flaming thread.
[size=75]You are as bad as Alan, and even he hits the mark sometimes. -charlie
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
Maybe somebody made them feel so useless and bad that that they didin't give a shit and decided to hang it up. Maybe life kept shitting on them at every turn -I know someone like that very well. I can't blame them for making this choice when all other options will just cause them more pain. A person can only take so much. They probably would miss the people that care about them more than the other way around. They probably would feel even more depressed and grieved knowing that they made this decesion and it's ramifications - but a person can only take so much sometimes before they give up. the survivors live on and life will bring many more realities to them but the deceased carries their pain into eternity thus removing it from the world.Alan Evil wrote: Hopefully we will all die of old age without pain, comfortable, and surrounded by love. Regrettably few of us will. But suicide is a really shitty choice, period. I've lost three good friends to suicide and it hurts everyone left behind. But we cannot judge those people because we don't know how bad it was for them. But we can know that it hurts us more than they ever realized.
The end-of-life-the-pain-is-unbearable-and-will-only-get-worse-I've-said-goodbye-so-let's-turn-out-the-lights kind of suicide is completely different but I don't think that's what we're talking about here. That's a whole different flaming thread.
There are some things in life that are worse then death, or are basically death on an installment plan. And until you have personally experenced them, it is hard to judge people who have and the choices they made.
Ozzie wrote: Wine is fine but whiskey’s quicker
Suicide is slow with liquor
Take a bottle and drown your sorrows
Then it floods away tomorrows
Evil thoughts and evil doings
Cold, alone you hang in ruins
Thought that you’d escape the reaper
You can’t escape the master keeper
’cause you feel like you’re living a lie
Such a shame who’s to blame and you’re wondering why
Then you ask from your cask us there life after birth
What you sow can mean hell on this earth
Now you live inside a bottle
The reaper’s traveling at full throttle
It’s catching you but you don’t see
The reaper is you and the reaper is me
Breaking laws, knocking doors
But there’s no one at home
Made your bed, rest your head
But you lie there and moan
Where to hide, suicide is the only way out
Don’t you know what it’s really about
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda
thus removing it from the world? and how does that work? do you really believe that?KD wrote:the survivors live on and life will bring many more realities to them but the deceased carries their pain into eternity thus removing it from the world.
do you know what a murderer has gone through? one from the ghetto who thought the only chance they had was to rob the local grocer who happened to have a gun behind the counter and was too slow to pull the trigger? i can't say i've ever experienced their pains, their hunger, their strife. but i can still tell you what they did was wrong.
and i get to judge them on their actions because those actions affect me and people i care about. they don't understand the pain i feel about it and what it causes me and the people around them. they don't see that, they're not around for that. pain doesn't transfer into death; it's scraped off and heaped into this world. killing yourself doesn't remove the pain. it only adds to it. i'm not going to watch people hurt others and simply say "to each his own".
you're walking down the street and this woman is completely in this kids face, yelling and screaming and telling him he's worthless. she continues on for an hour without relenting. she doesn't hit him but she doesn't have to, the humiliation and embarressment sting more than the back of her hand ever could. he's obviously intimidated and is cowering, completely silent throughout. you see this everyday for months. and i'm going to say, "well, maybe she's had a bad day. maybe she got fired.. maybe.. well, to each their own." no, i'm not.
kd, i beg.. beg that you either help them find help for themselves or find it for them. they have a choice. if you can't or need help with it, ask someone else close to them to get involved. if not them, there are doctors you can talk to.
suicide is not a way out. there are options, always options. there are no options in death. there are no good days or even good moments. there is no bravery or honor in suicide. there's bravery, courage, and honor in living.
and great loves will one day have to part -smashing pumpkins
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marathonmedic
- Posts: 1557
- Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:01 am
On that note, many attempts are not completed and leave the person with permanent disability, often much worse then they were when they decided to kill themselves. Tylenol is notorious for destroying your liver. (And it's also found in most prescription pain killers. When people overdose on pain medication it's the Tylenol that we worry about, not the narcotics.) Guns and many other things can make you linger. We had a guy here in town last fall jump from the 8th floor and live. He didn't even lose consciousness so he was able to properly experience both of his broken legs. This refers to a slightly different situation, but it still applies here.
Metallica wrote:Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute horror
I cannot live
I cannot die
Trapped in myself
Body my holding cell
Landmine has taken my sight
Taken my speech
Taken my hearing
Taken my arms
Taken my legs
Taken my soul
Left me with life in hell
Ticking is gym climbing outdoors.
When I was dead I wore a cheap perfume
When I was dead I couldn't leave the room
And the devil asked me to dinner
He said, 'careful with the spoons'
God said, 'oh ignore him. I've got all your albums.'
I said, 'Yes, but who's got all the tunes?"
When I was dead...
--Robyn Hitchcock
[size=75]You are as bad as Alan, and even he hits the mark sometimes. -charlie
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
I have to echo the sintiment: I do not respect people who commit suiside. The damage it does to your loved oned is permanant, and can never be erased.
I've seen the effect it has on people. It is monsterous. Forgivable, parhaps, but I would never see it in a neutral or positive light.
I've seen the effect it has on people. It is monsterous. Forgivable, parhaps, but I would never see it in a neutral or positive light.
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."