thanks alien...so do carbon steel bolts rust?
I bolted some routes last year in Southern Illinois, and when I asked a major player down there (someone who has bolted hundreds of lines), he uncategorically said that we needed to "up" the standard and go stainless. I am just curious as to why the Red would be different?
I bit the bullet, and plunked down over $700 for bolts and hangers.
Muir Madness
Wow. I just checked on some SS powerbolts. 1/2" X 4 3/4"
$685.00 for 25. ouch. I couldn't find the SS in 3 3/4" right off, but 25 carbon bolts were $152.15. that was from toolfetch.com, one could probably find them cheaper.
So why the dynabolt over the powerbolt or the hilti HDSL? there's a great article on bolts at the ASCA site. http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm.
The manufacturers specs state that the dynabolt requires a minimum imbedment of 1 7/8" and when placed in 2000psi concrete (comparable to the red), has a tensile strength of 2200lbs and a shear of 4000lbs. While the powerbolt lists a minimum imbedment of 2 1/2" and in 2000psi concrete has a tensile strength of 5380lbs and a shear strength of 8545lbs.
Clearly, the powerbolt is superior. A tensile strength of 2200 lbs is eqivalent to 9.9 Kn, which is not an outrageously high number for lead falls.
$685.00 for 25. ouch. I couldn't find the SS in 3 3/4" right off, but 25 carbon bolts were $152.15. that was from toolfetch.com, one could probably find them cheaper.
So why the dynabolt over the powerbolt or the hilti HDSL? there's a great article on bolts at the ASCA site. http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm.
The manufacturers specs state that the dynabolt requires a minimum imbedment of 1 7/8" and when placed in 2000psi concrete (comparable to the red), has a tensile strength of 2200lbs and a shear of 4000lbs. While the powerbolt lists a minimum imbedment of 2 1/2" and in 2000psi concrete has a tensile strength of 5380lbs and a shear strength of 8545lbs.
Clearly, the powerbolt is superior. A tensile strength of 2200 lbs is eqivalent to 9.9 Kn, which is not an outrageously high number for lead falls.
weather is occurring.
Piggie,
carbon will rust, stainless wont. the big issue with carbon bolts and stainless hangers is not so much the dissimilar metals being in contact with each other, but when the bolt begins to rust, it may do so at accelerated rates beneath the hanger and in the hole, making visual inspection somewhat unreliable.
carbon will rust, stainless wont. the big issue with carbon bolts and stainless hangers is not so much the dissimilar metals being in contact with each other, but when the bolt begins to rust, it may do so at accelerated rates beneath the hanger and in the hole, making visual inspection somewhat unreliable.
weather is occurring.
thanks for the article link batguano...
ok, now my new questions....as was posted earlier on this thread, it was maintained that the Muir Valley was all about "safety"....unless I am reading it wrong, aren't the stainless steel bolts far superior to the carbon ones? why would carbon be used?
I am guessing it boils down to price, which goes back to my assertion of bolting for the masses, and not for safety only.
I hated plunking down the cash, but my teacher said I would be a bit more discerning in bolt placement if I realized that every hole was costing me $10 to fill with metal.
I am truly not trying to argue on this...I welcome all input why carbon steel is adequate.
ok, now my new questions....as was posted earlier on this thread, it was maintained that the Muir Valley was all about "safety"....unless I am reading it wrong, aren't the stainless steel bolts far superior to the carbon ones? why would carbon be used?
I am guessing it boils down to price, which goes back to my assertion of bolting for the masses, and not for safety only.
I hated plunking down the cash, but my teacher said I would be a bit more discerning in bolt placement if I realized that every hole was costing me $10 to fill with metal.
I am truly not trying to argue on this...I welcome all input why carbon steel is adequate.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
As far as strength is concerned, it's a corrosion thing. Powers lists their carbon bolts as having the same strength values as SS when both are new. put one a carbon bolt in a hole in a humid environment for a few years (sound like the red?)... whip on it a few times... and one could expect the piece to fail below the stated strength value. If you're starting with a tensile strength of 9.9 Kn, then one may be cutting it close.
I would surmise that you are punctilious in your assumption about price.
I would surmise that you are punctilious in your assumption about price.
weather is occurring.
I see... I didn't find the specs for the gold right off, they don't seem to be on the redhead page. I found them though on the smith fasteners page. It does look like a good bolt. My apologies for jumping to conclusions on the plain dynabolt.
I would guess that the rock in the red is, at best, less than 2000psi. However, these bolts are designed for construction purposes and 2000psi is the lowest grade of comercially acceptable concrete. So the manufacturers don't test them in anything softer. You can check the ASCA link I posted for further info. They had a batch of 1000psi specially made for their tests.
Perhaps a geologist could give us a better idea of the general rock hardness in the red.
I would guess that the rock in the red is, at best, less than 2000psi. However, these bolts are designed for construction purposes and 2000psi is the lowest grade of comercially acceptable concrete. So the manufacturers don't test them in anything softer. You can check the ASCA link I posted for further info. They had a batch of 1000psi specially made for their tests.
Perhaps a geologist could give us a better idea of the general rock hardness in the red.
weather is occurring.
tbone..that'd be cool to hear from Rick...I am always curious as to how decisions are made as far as hardware.
really , my biggest question is this....considering the humid,wet conditions at the Red, should stainless be considerd the standard, or are these other options totally consistent with the goal of placing the best hardware for the longest useful life? if I hear a solid argument for carbon, then I would like to back off my own cost of bolting in So Il. I just assumed SS was the highest ideal.
really , my biggest question is this....considering the humid,wet conditions at the Red, should stainless be considerd the standard, or are these other options totally consistent with the goal of placing the best hardware for the longest useful life? if I hear a solid argument for carbon, then I would like to back off my own cost of bolting in So Il. I just assumed SS was the highest ideal.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
Man, there are so many old, *manky* orginal bolts in the red. I have replaced a few that broke under very, very low shear pressure, but had been holding falls just fine. How many of you all actually look at the bolts you are clipping? Those ones with the stud and nut are super old and are found on many routes. Probably been there for 10+ years and are not SS. Do you trust them?
Wes
Wes
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda