Online guidebook
Ray,
The routes listed in the latest edition were arbitrarily "grandfathered in" by the FS. There was no good reason other than the fact that those routes were already "published" and couldn't be "unpublished". It didn't matter when the routes were climbed, only when they were published.
If you feel strongly about publishing the routes and aren't sure if they would violate the spirit of the regulations the FS has in place, why not take a proactive approach and tell them what you want to do ahead of time and see if they have a problem with it. We can only speculate at this point. Considering what is at stake, erring on the side of caution is the way I'd go.
The routes listed in the latest edition were arbitrarily "grandfathered in" by the FS. There was no good reason other than the fact that those routes were already "published" and couldn't be "unpublished". It didn't matter when the routes were climbed, only when they were published.
If you feel strongly about publishing the routes and aren't sure if they would violate the spirit of the regulations the FS has in place, why not take a proactive approach and tell them what you want to do ahead of time and see if they have a problem with it. We can only speculate at this point. Considering what is at stake, erring on the side of caution is the way I'd go.
That's kind of what I'm doing now. I'm taking advantage of the "reverse RRGCC effect.
The definition is as follows:
reverse RRGCC effect-This is when information that otherwise would not have reached the National Forest Service actually does reach them through the mouths of the RRGCC members. Therefore, the RRGCC plays a role reverse of what they intend to. They intend to help protect climbing in the Red River Gorge but in fact do the exact opposite due to the large mouths and "tattle-tailing-tendencies" of some of the RRGCC members.
So, by explaining on this board what I plan to do, I'm sure the information will take it's path straight from the RRGCC to the NFS.
The definition is as follows:
reverse RRGCC effect-This is when information that otherwise would not have reached the National Forest Service actually does reach them through the mouths of the RRGCC members. Therefore, the RRGCC plays a role reverse of what they intend to. They intend to help protect climbing in the Red River Gorge but in fact do the exact opposite due to the large mouths and "tattle-tailing-tendencies" of some of the RRGCC members.
So, by explaining on this board what I plan to do, I'm sure the information will take it's path straight from the RRGCC to the NFS.
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Guest
Ouch, Ray. But perhaps you are not far off the mark?
This whole situation is frustrating and really hard to understand - for me anyway. Why the hell does route approval take so long? And does the FS really think that because a route is not "published" it is not being climbed? And even more curious, why the hell would a trad route with natural anchors even NEED approval?? This is the one that kills me!
Artsay, you are a very bad girl. I love it! I wish I was in your league so I could climb with you sometime.
This whole situation is frustrating and really hard to understand - for me anyway. Why the hell does route approval take so long? And does the FS really think that because a route is not "published" it is not being climbed? And even more curious, why the hell would a trad route with natural anchors even NEED approval?? This is the one that kills me!
Artsay, you are a very bad girl. I love it! I wish I was in your league so I could climb with you sometime.
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T Bone... no trad routes were submitted when those others were approved a while back. The approval process works, but the FS has limited funds and personell to go check the area for endangered species and archeologicaly significant areas which they are mandated by law to protect, even at the expense of having to not allow recreation in a "public" area. It takes time and money and unfortunately we are not high on their priority list. Lynne, this is why a trad route must be approved as well, it's not about bolts anymore... and really never should have been.
Chris Redmond's book did climbers in the gorge a dis-service. I had several conversations with FS employees about the bouldering guide while doing some volunteer work for them (I built a historical climbing display for them since THEY DONT HATE CLIMBERS!). This was right about the time that Chris's guide came out, and the FS was very unhappy about it. The thing is, they don't want to close down climbing in the gorge, but if we continue to violate the current law (rock climbing management plan... yes it's crap and they know it (which is why they are somewhat forgiving)), then they will be forced by law and by special interest groups (who DO in fact look at places like this bbs for information to use against us) to act. A special interest group that loves bats might hear a story about a big crack in an overhang up at a place called Pistol Ridge where they saw a few federally protected bats living for the past 3 years. They hear about climbers jamming their hands (and feet) into these really cool cracks and freak out (just like we would if someone chopped King Me and chipped off the holds because they like to collect pockets) and sue the forest service for not protecting the bats (as they are mandated by law to do) and for not following the rules established by the rock climbing management guide by allowing climbing to continue in an area that was published about illegally. There is NO LAW that mandates that the FS provide recreation at all, and definitely not climbing.
Ray, you are smart, you've told me plenty of times. When you say "what happened to him [chris redmond]?" you are correct when you say "nothing". What will happen to you for publishing these routes? nothing. What could happen to everyone? We could lose some routes, maybe even a crag... maybe even climbing all together. It is possible that we won't lose anything. If you're really smart (and I believe you), then you won't make judgement calls without knowing all the facts. Do you wanna know the skinny? Come to an RRGCC meeting and argue your points there. We don't bash people. You are more than welcome to come share your views with us. We already fight over some of the same issues you present. I am downright grumpy sometimes. We don't all get together with some secret agenda.
But hey, they won't really close climbing right? JB has got his panties all up in a bunch and is prosyletizing the RRGCC gospel... right? They haven't closed down any climbing in the gorge yet, right? Wrong. Hominy Hole, 30+ routes lost... Military, dodged the bullet, but still got hit, Pocket Wall (special interest), Chimney Top is closed too. hmmm. nah, they won't shut climbing down... not because of ME and what I want to do.
Chris Redmond's book did climbers in the gorge a dis-service. I had several conversations with FS employees about the bouldering guide while doing some volunteer work for them (I built a historical climbing display for them since THEY DONT HATE CLIMBERS!). This was right about the time that Chris's guide came out, and the FS was very unhappy about it. The thing is, they don't want to close down climbing in the gorge, but if we continue to violate the current law (rock climbing management plan... yes it's crap and they know it (which is why they are somewhat forgiving)), then they will be forced by law and by special interest groups (who DO in fact look at places like this bbs for information to use against us) to act. A special interest group that loves bats might hear a story about a big crack in an overhang up at a place called Pistol Ridge where they saw a few federally protected bats living for the past 3 years. They hear about climbers jamming their hands (and feet) into these really cool cracks and freak out (just like we would if someone chopped King Me and chipped off the holds because they like to collect pockets) and sue the forest service for not protecting the bats (as they are mandated by law to do) and for not following the rules established by the rock climbing management guide by allowing climbing to continue in an area that was published about illegally. There is NO LAW that mandates that the FS provide recreation at all, and definitely not climbing.
Ray, you are smart, you've told me plenty of times. When you say "what happened to him [chris redmond]?" you are correct when you say "nothing". What will happen to you for publishing these routes? nothing. What could happen to everyone? We could lose some routes, maybe even a crag... maybe even climbing all together. It is possible that we won't lose anything. If you're really smart (and I believe you), then you won't make judgement calls without knowing all the facts. Do you wanna know the skinny? Come to an RRGCC meeting and argue your points there. We don't bash people. You are more than welcome to come share your views with us. We already fight over some of the same issues you present. I am downright grumpy sometimes. We don't all get together with some secret agenda.
But hey, they won't really close climbing right? JB has got his panties all up in a bunch and is prosyletizing the RRGCC gospel... right? They haven't closed down any climbing in the gorge yet, right? Wrong. Hominy Hole, 30+ routes lost... Military, dodged the bullet, but still got hit, Pocket Wall (special interest), Chimney Top is closed too. hmmm. nah, they won't shut climbing down... not because of ME and what I want to do.
Well, I've reached the first crag with new and unapproved routes and I didn't hesitate or think for one second to not include them.
Pistol Ridge....online guide. Wanna find directions to the "offwidth version of the crackhouse"? Check it out. Do a search for "Symbol Man" at "Pistol Ridge".
Fuck all y'all.
Pistol Ridge....online guide. Wanna find directions to the "offwidth version of the crackhouse"? Check it out. Do a search for "Symbol Man" at "Pistol Ridge".
Fuck all y'all.
Damn, That hurts man!
JB very good points! But I guess we know how Ray feels on this one. No patience to allow us to do our VOLUNTEER jobs! I am so freakin glad that I spend so much money every year driving to meetings, fundraisers, talks, etc just so someone can piss on my cash. stress levels, the community, Shannon~who busts her tail every freakin moment on the communities behalf at NO COMPENSATION WHAT SO EVER! Well I guess I will wallow in my self pity since I am so self important, self interested, self absorbed.
JB very good points! But I guess we know how Ray feels on this one. No patience to allow us to do our VOLUNTEER jobs! I am so freakin glad that I spend so much money every year driving to meetings, fundraisers, talks, etc just so someone can piss on my cash. stress levels, the community, Shannon~who busts her tail every freakin moment on the communities behalf at NO COMPENSATION WHAT SO EVER! Well I guess I will wallow in my self pity since I am so self important, self interested, self absorbed.
Last edited by Gretchen on Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just genuinely disengenuous.
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Thanks dude. I'm glad you stuck to your "convictions". Great final response there too.. really shows how smart you are. I'm of the opinion that while you including unapproved won't help climbers any, at least your history of irresponsible behavior and comments have been well documented over the past 3 years and the FS knows you're not the normal climber. In fact, they know you're just plain not normal. And why not include that stuff, it's not as if you haven't already "published" it with all your spray.
:: I may be weak, but I have bad technique!! ::