RRC Archives

bushwhacker wrote:*Please understand that if you or anyone else has a strong preference for lowering, then do so. There are no hard and fast rules in the Valley other than keeping it as safe as possible.*

That's all I want to hear, thanks. Can't wait to check out the new routes!

Just keep a record of all the hangers you're prematurely wearing out and replace them frequently or donate some cash to the people that put them up there for you to replace.

Bushwhacker, I feel bad for you that you can't picture what we are trying to describe in this thread. That's okay, not everyone has the ability to visualize. If you want, I can demonstrate to you how we rappel (the "haas" way) on Sunday morning at Muir Valley. PM me if you want to meet to do this. I can also show you how to quote somebody in this board, while we're at it. I feel lucky when I learn something new everyday, I'm offering you the chance to learn two new things on Sunday. Think about it.

*Just keep a record of all the hangers you're prematurely wearing out and replace them frequently or donate some cash to the people that put them up there for you to replace.*

I've seen enough prematurely worn-out climbers from rapping accidents (5 stiffs witnessed by me personally in 30 years at the crags), and they're a little harder to replace...

What were the causes for the rapping accidents? Can they be corrected?

Now that we are discussing poor souls who've augered in, it would be good to remind all who climb in Muir to take one of those cheap FRS walkie talkies with you and keep it tuned to Channel 5, privacy code 10 (5.10). If an accident occurs, call on this channel to hopefully get help. Most weekends this past season, this frequency was being monitored by climbers in the Valley. When weather permits (!) we will have the road completed along the valley floor for emergency vehicles to access most of the climbing areas.

Nothing would please us more than to have no climbing accidents in the Valley. But, we have to be realistic. This sport carries significant risk.

Rick

*What were the causes for the rapping accidents? Can they be corrected?*

Rapping off the end, knot change-over on fixed lines (actually saw that one happen), and un-even ends (2 of those).

Those of you arguing for rapping off sport routes to preserve the anchors are contradicted by some pretty weighty authoritative sources, namely Lohn Long in his instructional books, who would not advocate threading and lowering directly through the anchors if rapping were a common sense alternative.

Experienced climbers become experienced by making correct and logical risk-assessment decisions based on prioritizing what is really important, and by learning from other's mistakes. Victims of accidents resulting from subjective causes, on the other hand, lack that level of judgement. Subjecting yourself to increased and unnecessary risk just to preserve hardware is illogical. You're supposed to wear out the gear, not the other way around. Anchors can be replaced, in fact I see nothing wrong with the idea of new anchors every 5 or 6 years or so, whether they wear out or not, especially in a freeze-thaw environment like KY.

Ask knowledgeable SAR people if they'd rather have everybody lowering or rappelling from sport routes. John Long is one of those, so you've already got his answer. Sorry if I went too long with this and became obnoxious but this is something I believe in. I've sport climbed pretty extensively in other countries and I have NEVER seen anybody rapping from sport routes anyplace but the U.S. Like drinking piss-water beer or being a conservative republican, it's a peculiarly American thing that seems to me to reflect a closed mindset if not flat-out ignorance ...peace out.

bushwhacker wrote: Rapping off the end, knot change-over on fixed lines (actually saw that one happen), and un-even ends (2 of those).

I dont see how any of these have to do with single pitch climbing under 100ft. (ie muir valley...topic of conversation)

bushwhacker wrote: I've always thought it illogical to trade climber safety for hardware preservation, which is what happens when you rap instead of lower off.
<snip>
Simply put, there is so much more that can go wrong rapping vs. lowering that the increased exposure to risk does not justify the benefit of anchor preservation. Never heard of someone dying from a sport anchor failing, but rappell accidents are commonplace. There is a reason why every sport climbing manual illustrates the proper way to clip in, thread the rope through the fixed gear and lower off instead of rapping - it's safer.

I agree with the bush. Rapping is a far more dangerous process than simply being lowered. Instituting a "Please rap" policy may be penny-wise and safety-foolish. I would humbly suggest that you might want to rethink this, Rick.

ZSpider

I have to say bushwacker makes a good point. Adding in the steps while hanging at the anchor of clipping in, untying, threading the rope and then hooking up the rappel device and rapping down invites error. As we all know, there is not room for error here.
Strictly from a probability stand point adding in all of these steps and done over and over many times, eventually someone will make an error. Probably someone less experience. Tired, having difficulty with the knot, probably not clipping in right or hooking up the rappel device wrong. Anywa, the mistake will occur, someone decks and is really hurt if not dead.
It is the old adage of a chain is as strong....
Remove as many steps from the process to avoid one an error being made at one of those steps.
I agree too that hard ware is for using and replacing. Also, I am not aware of this being done any where else. I think it invites trouble.
I will of course abide by it, but then again it won't be me who decks (I hope).

bushwhacker wrote:Those of you arguing for rapping off sport routes to preserve the anchors are contradicted by some pretty weighty authoritative sources, namely Lohn Long in his instructional books, who would not advocate threading and lowering directly through the anchors if rapping were a common sense alternative.

Thank you for giving us an example to support our case. You quoted it yourself - the 3 things we were saying all along:

1. Do not advocate threading and lowering directly through the anchors,
2. if rapping were a common sense alternative.
3. The use of "Common Sense" as quoted by you.