RRC Archives

Wes wrote:

dhoyne wrote: It's all about anchoring yourself to the ground.

That is quite possabily the worst thing you can do while climbing steep routes. Sure you might not get lifted off the ground, but you will break the leaders' ankles. I would never, ever let someone anchor in on a single pitch lead.

Wes

This is true on steep routes like you said. However, on slabby routes, a soft catch will turn your climber into a cheese grater. Beware the Bear is barely overhanging -- not enough to create a pendulum.

Meadows wrote: I was anchored - it was when I was lowering him.

People don't get much bigger than you, Jolly Green Giant

It is pretty hard to lower heavier people with an ATC - unless there's alot of drag in the system there's alot of force required to lock off. I've hear that fliping your pear locker around helps because the tighter bend will put more friction in the system, although I'm not sure if this really works or not as I haven't tested it.

dhoyne wrote:It is pretty hard to lower heavier people with an ATC - unless there's alot of drag in the system there's alot of force required to lock off. I've hear that fliping your pear locker around helps because the tighter bend will put more friction in the system, although I'm not sure if this really works or not as I haven't tested it.

Dhoyne, ALL of my climbers outweigh me, some by 100 lbs. It's not hard to lock off an ATC in a fall or for lowering (I've caught heavy climbers on HUGE whippers), but I do always take air--sometimes even when lowering. I've never had a problem holding the break under any circumstances, even when wearing a very large leader as a hat. It just takes practice, and focus.

It just takes practice, and focus.

Yep. Unfortunately, lots of poeple that use gri-gris lack the latter of those two.

Now here's my question: I weigh about 210. Other than jumping as hard as I can, is there any way to give a softer catch to a falling leader on overhanging routes? I usually try to squat down if I think they're gonna blow off, then quickly stand up and jump as the rope gets taut, jumping alone seems to make them stop way too quickly and they still can swing a bit.

just to be clear, I don't use a grigri. Learned on a plate and now use an ATC. I think a lot of people who use grigri's do develop bad habits (not the equipment's fault). I don't climb with those people. On the other hand, a lot of people who do use grigri's are excellent belayers and I trust my life to some of them on a regular basis.

I think it's all in how you're taught. Gri-Gri's have become very common in gyms and people now take for granted that they're going to catch someone falling. If you become dependant on them, then you may not even think about letting go of the brake when your leader does fall. I learned to climb in a gym and Gri-Gri's were still pretty new. All the experienced climbers there were very cautous about useing one on lead climbs and I have kind of developed that same mentality. I only use them on leads when that is the only beley device present. Even then I am very nervous about holding down the brake to feed rope. I find that I am always letting go of the brake before I pull out enough slack and I have to do it again. This doesn't make for very smooth leads, so I always try to use an ATC or a Bug.

There is nothing inherently wrong or dangerous about grigri's. What people are describing is a correlation (which does not equal causation) between people who use grigri's and inexperienced gym climbers. I learned to belay on an ATC and I started to use a grigri when belaying heavy people who are "working" hard sport routes. I hold the cam down to feed out slack and when someone falls, I grab the brake side of the rope as I would on an ATC--this ensures that I will not hold the cam down during a fall. When on lead, I much prefer to be belayed by someone using a grigri because every time someone with an ATC belays me, I get resistance pulling up on the rope when clipping. In sum, anyone who holds tightly to the brake-end of the rope during a fall will catch the leader--regardless of their belay device.

steep4me wrote:There is nothing inherently wrong or dangerous about grigri's. What people are describing is a correlation (which does not equal causation) between people who use grigri's and inexperienced gym climbers.

I think simply the word inexperienced is what you are looking for. I agree that some people will go climbing at a gym and then think that they can climb outdoors. But all of the "impromptu" belay instructions I have seen at the Red involved an experienced climber showing a friend how to belay right before they lead a route. They think they are being safer by having the individual use a GriGri. Being someone who climbs in a gym regularly or someone who climbs outside regularly should not be an issue when it involves belaying. Know the individual that you are trusting and know what they are capable of...if you don't know, ask and if you are still unsure it is just not worth the risk.

RQClimber, You are right--I meant inexperienced or gumby climbers (of which we all were at one time). I stand corrected.

It's interesting to see the evolution of belaying technique. In the hemp rope days before strong nylon fibers came along, dynamic belays were necessary to keep the shock of a leader fall from breaking the rope. Then, with the advent of nylon kern/mantle ropes, static belays became the norm wherein the rope itself became the dynamic part of the system with stretch as much as 30%.

Many of the rock climbing courses in places, other than the Red, teach anchoring the belayer is a must. The AMGA guys insist on it. And, even the current edition of "Advanced Rock Climbing" by John Long and Craig Luebben includes this under the heading "Belaying the Leaders": "Some rules are made to be broken: belay rules are not. In review, the belay rules are; never take
your brake hand off the rope; stay alert and focused on the climber; have bombproof belay
anchors and tie yourself in tight, in line with the anticipated direction of pull;...

Now comes us Red River Gorge folks with our Cirque du Soli belaying technique. Take a whipper and launch your unattached belayer into Menifee County. Wheeeeee!!

Most of us here on belay rarely tie in. Right?

But, because this thread has included a lot of opinions on GriGri use and dynamic belays, consider a recent nasty accident in the Monte-Blanc range involving an untied-in belayer using a GriGri. The leader fell and pulled his belayer off the ground. In correct fashion, the belayer was not gripping the brake, so all should have ended well. But, this belayer was yanked up into an outcropping of rock. (Gee, do we have those down here in the Red?) In its proper loaded position the GriGri presents its brake lever to any old rock that might be sticking out. In this accident, the belayer was pinned to the outcropping, which held the brake cam open. The impact stunned her (momentarily unconscious) and she released her brake hand.

Thud.

This could be considered a rare freak accident. But, we belayers might take a long hard look at that rock above our heads to be sure we won't smack it when Shamu takes a dive. Regardless of the belay device used, we aren't much use to our leader when the lights go out.

Rick Weber

Wouldn't anchors lessen the dynamic of the catch should the climber fall? It seems to me that it's a guaranteed ride for the climber to the E.R. for a cast and shot of morphine.