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I didn't have a problem with your post TK. You addresssed the face hold thing ,that is kinda creepy !

Thank you, 88keys, for understanding the actual definition of selfish, and not asigning it the typical negative emotions evoked when people hear it. Inconsiderate is the correct word to use (splitting hairs and off-topic, I know, but a peve of mine, nonetheless), because truly selfish acts are neither bad or harmful to others (too long a discussion on philosophy to get into on a bullettin board.)

All that being said, if someone wants to free-solo, rock on. However, if one has no desire to spray about the free-solo, then there would never be a mention of it, unless asked "Have you free-soloed?" in which case the non-spray answer would be simply "Yes", with no mention of the route, or grade, or height, etc. It's all very a interesting feature of sociology and human nature.

ANd THEN, on top of all that, isn't anything below say, 35-40' just a highball? When does a long boulder problem become a "route"? (serious question there, I'm curious.)

Oh yeah, and one more thing. Not trying to offend anyone, but, if anyone is climbing and doesn't think there is a chance they could get hurt, they need to stop. If a person is so affected by the sight of another climber falling and being severely injured or killed that they themselves quit climbing, then they too should not be climbing in the first place. We all know the risks of adding potential energy to our bodies. Perhaps if one free-soloer witnessed another free-soloer plummit to his/her death and decided to stop free-soloing, that would be an accurate reaction. But, a roped climber witnessing a free-soloer falling and dieing should not lead the roped climber to stop climbing with ropes, because the two are unrelated.

Rain Man wrote:ANd THEN, on top of all that, isn't anything below say, 35-40' just a highball? When does a long boulder problem become a "route"? (serious question there, I'm curious.).

I think it is a problem if you do not use a rope and it is 5.10+ (or V1-ish). There are several problems that don't take gear, have no anchors, and are not bolted that are over 50 feet. Back in the day it was not unusual for climbers to free solo routes in Southern Illinois, Jackson Falls mainly. Jackson Falls is a huge canyon and back before the bolting really started you had two choices for exiting the canyon... top out or walk and walk and walk. Alot of routes got bolted by the original free soloists because they did not want other people to do so... safety bolts if you must. Look in the back of the last published Vertical Heartland guidebook, there are several routes with First Free Solos listed. Several in the 5.11 and 5.12 range that are 60 even 70 feet. Back then they were just problems that you didn't want to fall on.

Climbing (with ropes) is not for everyone.
Solo climbing (with ropes) is not for everyone.
Free soloing is not for everyone.
I have soloed more than 300 routes - mostly coconut-trees-routes, and never used a single rope. I have taken a few falls from more than 70 feet in the air (with no ropes). I was lucky because I managed to catch myself on the way DOWN. This is something I learned to do at a young age while surfing big waves: you crash, your land it (on your board).
Still, soloing on rock is (to me) far safer than on a tree. I have had hand hold break on me, and I cought myself on the way down all the same. It's a matter of remaining calm and focused. I learned a lot from that.
Today, it's everyone's choice to climb (with or without). I still don't recommend it, but let's face it: Climbing probably wouldn't be what it is known as today if it weren't for the bold climbers who "did not fall". They had a rope, only to belay the second. They lived a wonderful life, and explored more than "we" probably will ever explore. Were they safe? Safe enough.

Back then, they didn't have cars able to travel at speeds of more than 150 mph. Are we safer today?

Still, I want to be an old climber, and although I will be using ropes a whole lot more for my safety, I find myself often faced with the need to climb something totally unprotected... mostly because under the circumstances, it may prove to be faster.

The circumstances matter, but above all: the climbers' state of mind, focus and ability will have to rule all other matters. It's a personal choice, just like climbing with a rope is a personal choice. Heck, they are probably non-climbers that will beg us not to get more than 10 feet off the ground with a rope - like our grand-mothers...

You should hold a clinic during Derby Fest on soloing trees... that would be interesting. You could use your dog as a crashpad, he is big enough. It sure wouldn't hurt him.

canadaclimbergirl wrote:please.....You have to agree that soloing is FAR more risky than rapping off and cleaning anchors. Yes...people get killed everyday by doing things FAR LESS risky than soloing....EXACTLY my point.

Actually, I feel soloing is usually safer then cleaning anchors or rapping. Here is why: People that solo pay attention to what the are doing. They really pay attention to the climbing. Where as people that are cleaning anchors and rapping don't always have their attention where it needs to be. Which is why they forget to tie back in, tie bad knots, or rap off the end of the rope.

I have seen many more scary scenes with people on ropes then I have with people free soloing. Maybe you should direct your at the crag riot act reading to gumbies who try to climb before the really know what they are doing and to experenced climbers who start getting compliecent. They are the ones that are going to need to be carried out.

I want to do the OR route on whitesides. First pitch is a hunderd and some feet of 5.7. No pro. I am selfish and stupid to want to do that route, even though the first pitch a free solo?

Maybe you all just like the security of percieved risk vs. actual risk. You can say to yourself "free soloing is very dangerous, but I have a rope so I am safe". But that just isn't true.

The other thing I don't understand is the anti spraying part. I mean, if it is cool for me to spray about some route I sent, then why is it not cool for me to spray about a free solo? I solo for the same reasons I climb, mine. Those reasons evolve and change over time, but they are the same.

Final note: I will be damned if I have to ask someones fucking permision to climb in my chosen style.

Wes

Wes - FYI, the first pitch of the OR has a fixed pin about 30 or so feet up and it's easy slab climbing. And you can get some gear after that. The pitch with no pro is like the fifth or something (I forget exactly) and it's 150ft traverse that's as easy as walking down the street.

I knew this guy who was a 5.13 sport climber and he decided to start free soloing. He did a couple of easy sport routes and sprayed like mad about it at Miguel's. It was kind of weird and a lot of people gave him shit about it.

*Usually* people who free solo are secure with their climbing abilities and aren't pushing their limits on the climbs they chose to free solo. I think they're just confident people who enjoy the free, uninhibited, focused movements. My feeling is that these people are very confident and secure and don't need the superficial confidence booster that spraying about it gives them. I believe the ones that do need to spray about are just lost souls in search of praise and approval. Note: Telling your friends and spraying to strangers are two totally different things.

I saw this guy free solo a 1000ft frozen waterfall. Locals said that that's just what he does. He was done climbing the thing in about the time it would've taken a fast climber to do the first 200ft. It was awesome to watch.

Depending on the scenario (climber, conditions, etc.) watching someone free solo can be an exhilarating or exhausting situation. I'm not in complete opposition to it but I do think that some people do it for the wrong reasons.

TK wrote:Here is another perspective :

I enjoy climbing long multi pitch routes. I take climbing vacations out west. I climb at crags, I climb mountains, I climb rock, ice, and snow. On mountains its not unusual to run into long sections of unprotected climbing on super classic routes. ...

If you don’t want to face these obstacles then stay at your home crag and follow where others have gone before you. Climb only as far as your eye can see. Always assume you are on the right path. Never dare to ask what is around the next corner or over the next bulge. Don’t explore for new opportunities or avenues ( that will leave more for me). Go only where those have gone before you, but stay off of Foxfire with all that imaginary gear. There is nothing wrong with that. Whatever floats your boat.

Yes. It's as selfish as all climbing is. You won't get that geni back in the bottle. I've tried.

Amen Merrick and others.

For those that have and will post pro comments, climb on brother, climb on!


Respectfully yours,

TK

TK That is a balanced,wellreasoned explanation of why you free solo. I omitted several paragraphs of your post to save spacebut they flesh out your point which is a good one. My opinion about the big question:whether people should or shouldn't free solo is, to me, irrelevant.
When I first heard about it I jumped to judgment about your sanity and ego. I kept these thoughts to myself but now I question neither your sanity or your ego. I know you have to be relieved to now pass judgmentby this gumby. Climb on.

Soloing is just as enticing as anything else, but there are only those select few who can't resist that urge and just have to go for it and eventually start pushing their limits. It's mysterious if you haven't ever done it which always leads to doubts and questions. Before I ever begain roped climbing I soloed all over a place called Garden of The Gods in Southern Illinois. Most of the stuff I did would probably max out at 5.4, but the height factor was still there. This place had potential for some very hard climbing, but has been closed (for reasons I have yet to learn) to any type of climbing where equipment is involved, including bouldering pads. I don't know what the exact status is for non roped climbing at GOTG, but I've been told (don't know reliability of info) that you can't be prevented from non-roped/equipment climbing in general. Now that I've begain sport climbing and have aged a few years, I know the dangers involved in what I was doing back then. Holds could have broke, tennis shoes hardly had the necessary grip, and carrying a water jug and camera bag was probably not the best idea either. But, those are the days of our lives and everyone has the right to do as they please and talk about it to whomever the want. It may be considered spray when these people talk about their ascents, but sometimes it's just a matter of wanting to share their experiences and may have no self inflating ego purposes behind it.