RRC Archives

The Red is one of the last bastions of zinc plated junk hardware bolting in North America.. ironic as the rock is so porous and seepy half the year. I think the persistence of crap hardware here is mostly due to the exorbitant cost of the stainless version of the 1/2" Power bolt required for the soft sandy Corbin crap rock... approx 4-5× the cost of an all stainless setup used as other areas with harder rock. Plated, by comparison, lasts "reasonably" well (usually 10-15 or sometimes 20 years depending on the microenvironment). And the fact that the climbable rock of the escarpment is essentially limitless hasn't helped to slow development much... roughly 100-200 new routes per year for the last decade or so, whereas "we" are only able to get to rebolting 50-75 routes per year... I say "we" in quotes because historically the actual and inevitable maintenance work of has been shouldered by a collection of fine individuals than can be counted on two hands. Thanks guys.

nice pivot. i wouldn't have thought of Smith Rock and Red Rock as having such uniquely hard rock compared to the Red.

to take you at your word, what would help you reconcile the conflicts you have between developing new routes in Miller Fork and assisting in the caretaking of the other....

[edit 2/7] i understand that all the gear has been provided (except chains/whatnot) but i would be happy to front the developers portion of the investment required for a couple of routes plus the extras if i could be put in touch directly with a willing drill and glue nozzle owner. is there a reason that it has to be a prize and the climbing class distinction so carefully protected?

Are you asking someone to bolt a route for you just for the heck of it? Not really quite sure what your asking here. I'm sitting at skybridge right now, come buy me some beers and we can talk about how much glory you could have on a chosspile of your very own.

very nice. pm sent.

So this whole thing confuses me. Being a lowly gym climbing 90% of the time and not a regular, I never understand the animosity that is seen on these boards. Sarcasm and friendly (or even not so friendly) banter is expected, but there always seem to be some significant rifts (aka Muir v. RRGCC...don't know the story, but damn did reading some of that stuff make me ashamed to call myself a climber).

With that being said, I do love a good internet debate with people I don't know, so I'll chime in. It does seem like there's a focus on quantity over quality, but given the crowds on the moderate routes, I'm okay with more development. Plus, like others have said, you can't stop people when there are no overarching rules or method of enforcement. So with unlimited funding for rebolting, I agree that the focus should be on ensuring that the current development is being done with sustainable hardware so we don't continue to have this problem 10 years from now. So Clif, I'd suggest not fighting a good thing, especially when there really aren't any alternatives.

In other news, if anyone is ever looking for a helping hand when rebolting, I'd be happy to help/learn. Nothing is more terrifying when I'm at the crux of a gnarly 5.10d and can't stop thinking about what I'm sure is a 20 year bolt that's gonna blow if I fall. (I know, my mental game is not strong.) Plus I don't want to be labeled a selfish gym climber...

Murph, always looking for a helping hand to rebolt. Send me a pm if interested.

there have been some changes in the original post and maybe the links, so the 'fighting a good thing' is not necessarily understood best with a won/lost/ko score. if you wpend some time and try to match the initiative to the strategy to the facts you might not see my posts as a fight but just trying to make sense of the politics. if people want to buy land and pay developers to put up routes i wouldn't fight that, i just think it's nuts.

No one is paying anyone to put up routes. Route developers still pay a substantial amount out of pocket to get hardware, but this initiative makes higher-quality, longer-lasting materials more accessible and affordable for the people doing the work.

Thank again to everyone who supported this, and to guys like Erik and others who continue to do great work maintaining the older crags.

Apparently I don't have enough posts to send a PM:

"We are sorry, but you are not authorised to use this feature. You may have just registered here and may need to participate more to be able to use this feature."

Can you try to PM me? I'd like to get in touch and help out!

And Clif, maybe I am missing something, but it seems to me like this is just a fundraising drive so people like me who don't know how to develop can donate money to an organization that is ensuring routes are being added and bolted correctly. People will bolt regardless of the efforts of this group, but this way stainless and glue in bolts are subsidized so that developers can afford them. I'm not an expert at economics, but investing now saves money and man hours in the future if developers use cheap hardware. Like I said, I would prefer it if the bolting effort was going a little slower so maybe someday I can learn how to bolt and set new routes, but with the Red still growing, I'm sure there will be plenty more crags that can be bolted. This initiative isn't going to effect the rate at which new routes are put up.

dustonian wrote:Nope, not going to work. 95% of developers would just go back to using plated bolts for the same price as they have for the last 35 years in the RRG. It is already like pulling teeth to get 3/4 of them to buy stainless at $3. The "community" (ha) doesn't know the difference or give a shit one way or the other. You have some nice abstract ideas that have zero grounding in the real-world situation.

remember that? i would be grateful if you would share your hard won understanding of the real world. until then, i know i would be willing to and maybe others but i'm not sure you want to give us the chance, and then you'd cite 'overcrowding' as if drive by, johnny's, bruisbrother's, solarium, motherlode will be relieved by the miller fork walls. anyway, by thinking you know what developer's are willing to pay rather than the select group that have spent time in Miller you allow yourself to believe that only you can save us.

murph- thanks again for explaining to me the proper thought processes and sharing your understanding. and crag shortage is the reason the rrgcc was formed in the first place, so i guess i'd suggest questioning your assumptions. i obviously disagree with most of what you say, mostly because it repeats what dustonian and ian have already declared inviolable.