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good question, Ryan. I, for one, feel like a little kid listening to the grown ups talk. I can't imagine climbing that hard!

Well, I can imagine it, but I seem to be a ways from doing it.

First, Yasmeen's question about a climb to try. I did Ro (not clean mind you) and I am far from a 12 sport climber (barely hard 10s).

Second, people are tossing around 11-12 and 13 a lot, but I wonder how many of the so called "12" climbers could touch a 10 trad?

Obviously SCIN is excluded from that group.

Ben

Hey uh, Ben, not to be rude or anything but the name of the forum is SPORT CLIMBING

Mj

Are you serious BP? Do you really think that these dudes that are pulling down 12's every weekend cannot climb rock wars. I've got my money on rat-baby and Horatio.

BP i with JR on this one. Most so called "12" climbers might not want to layback or jam some crack but i bet quit a few could pull through on some 10 trads and i bet that there is quit a few well rounded climbers out there that do both on a regular bases. The point is that grades, trad or sport, are really just a matter of opinion and you can't really quantify an opinion, you can compare it and maybe make some generalizations, but that's about it. Grades give you a decent idea of how hard the route is but so does looking at the thing. My advice is to climb what looks fun and use grades as a rough idea of how you're climbing.

Gades just keep most people from getting into a route way over thier limit.
When you are pushing your limit you usually only bump it one grade.

I'm sure some of them could (i've seen it) but on the oterhand I've climbed with many people that could outclimb me easy in the gym that are totally stumped when faced with a slick face parted only by a crack (something you can't layback). I'm not trying to be egotistical, I suck at climbing. Just making an observation about grades.

Ben

Really, you are trying to compare apples to oranges. If you are saying a 5.10 crack is harder than a 5.12 face climb, how so? Are the moves harder? Is it more strenuous on your body? If the moves on the 5.10 crack are harder, then why can't you pull the 5.12 face moves? I am definitely with Sparky on this one. I have no clue of how hard I can climb trad because I have no desire to know. I have been on enough trad climbs (easy ones) to know that it's not my thing. I didn't have the least bit of trouble jamming and laying back etc, but I just didn't care for it. If you like it though, more power to you. Just give me a rack of draws and point me in the direction of the nearest bolted line.

Mj

Monkey, you're just after the numbers and don't have the skills climb 12 trad. That's why you say you don't like it. Climbing is climbing. True?