Page 5 of 17
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 8:42 pm
by Wolf
chooky wrote:Meadows wrote:Hugh posted on facebook that a correct biner was used. Jkpugel also stated that in the tests done, the defective device still did not lock, whereas another did. Also, a safety feature of the SUM is that it cams when in a vertical position, which is the position it takes when the climber falls (when pulling slack, the belayer pulls the rope toward his/her body). In the test done, the rope did not cam in a vertical position, it would cam only when perpendicular to the wall.
Additionally, what we don't know is if a rubber ring (something that comes with the device) was used and how the SUM was attached to the harness. Many people run their biner through the top and bottom loop where the belay loop attaches or use the belay loop and one of the attaching loops. You cannot do this with the SUM because orientation of the device is essential for it to cam properly.
If people were aware of the necessity of using a correct biner, you have to assume that they were also aware of the necessity of ensuring that the cam would not be held open by carabiner. (Sum packaging is very clear about the rubber safety loop, but does not emphasize biner choice.) I also wonder whether experienced sport climbers would really use a weird setup like attaching the belay biner through the harness power points.
It sort of sounds like a manufacturing defect. I guess the concern is that the straight path of the rope through the Sum doesn't provide as much friction as the rope's path in other devices (such as the Grigri's U-shaped line) in the event that the cam does not engage.
RE: Wolf
It is shocking that people would use the Sum in a way that they hold the cam down. This would be much more awkward than using it properly. The cam is the trigger at the back of the device. Holding the device at the front has no effect on the cam. Are you sure that you were seeing them hold the cam down?
Yep. At least one of the two people I've actually watched using the sum was squeezing the handle open. Both definitely did not have the brake hand on. I've also seen two people pay slack from the grigri by holding the lever open like you would to lower, which is incredibly awkward. At least one of those cases involved the classic "I don't want you to belay me with that unsafe ATC. Here, use my grigri that I won't bother to teach you how to use because it's safe." None of these incidents were problems with either device, but with the people involved.
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:04 pm
by caribe
-Recent climbing history teaches us that if there is a cam to hold open, someone will hold it open.
-A dispassionate self-critique has me admitting that it will be me in that odd, one-in-million situation, even though it is not my SOP. For example, my buddy is around an arete with a little rope drag and I can't see him. He is trying to make a desperate clip. He wants the rope right now! Squeeze, yard slack and fall. Depending on the parameters he may deck.
-I have to question self because he and I are in this together. Whatever happens to him happens to me and gets translated into sleepless nights and therapy. It comes out as an audible' FUCK!', out of the blue for no apparent reason when I think back and remember. The peace in my life is forever disturbed, while his peace may be forever.
-The drama and the chaos get written in the margin between systole and diastole plus that half second in which I don't realize he is already off the rock.
-Devices that routinely include moments of cam disengagement in their operation are at these moments obviously unsafe. Manufacturers know this when they plaster all the red exclamation marks and the skull and crossbones on the section in the manual describing these operations. The Grigri has been out for about 20 years.(1) In 2008 Petzl published a new 'safer' technique "developed by climbers and promoted in 2005 on 8a.nu."(2) The mere fact that the users are developing more practicable techniques than the manufacturer indicates a questionable level of complexity inherent in the device.
-I think the Grigri history also reflects a native overestimation of the human factor, an overestimation of the ability to react. Louis L'amor Western drug store novels and Hollywood action films likely contribute to the myth that we are fast as lightening. The truth is when shit goes wrong, either your autoblock device works, or your hand is on the break or your buddy has decked. Clevis description reflects the myth that we all at least partially hold: "
It takes like two seconds to fall from 70 feet. In those two seconds he couldn't regain control of the belay."
-No sorry he could not gain control of the belay, and in a similar situation, neither could you. Clevis has the right perspective about never losing control of the break, but please ditch the myth.
Everyone repeat after me: In full realization that I have a nervous system based on characteristically slow diffusion processes --
albeit across nanometric scales--I have no choice but to ditch the myth that I hold so dear regarding my Batman-like reaction time.
1)
http://www.zionadventures.com/ZBlog/gea ... ing-again/
2)
http://www.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread. ... ryCode=NLD
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:32 pm
by clif
fwiw, i'm reconsidering the advantages of using belay gloves-not much time to react, but provides an advantage in adverse circumstances or, another layer of indifference between belayer and climber? i can still remember the pain, which is this experience of unhappiness, when a climber hung off a body belay.
ok, somebody shoot me.
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:52 pm
by THB
Art, I've used the SUM for about the past 2 years with out any issues... The issues that are shown in this video can completely be eliminated with the carabiner that you are using with the device. They do recommend the Petzl Attache or the Petzl William, using the SUM with either of these 2 carabiners eliminates this problem completely.
I'm not advocating for or against use of the SUM, but I am advocating for learning about your equipment as much as you possibly can before you purchase or use the gear.
I was looking at the SUM that was used in this particular incident earlier today, and there is definitely something different about the one that was being used and every other SUM I've seen. I'm not saying that my SUM is fail-safe and the one used in the incident is not fail-safe.
I will say to use caution if you are using a SUM. I am hoping to do some testing with some other qualified people so that we can get this information out the public. Hopefully there will be more to come about this soon.
Climb safe. Learn about your gear before you use it.
Cheers,
Todd
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:09 pm
by Spikeddem
I heard that thousands of years ago there was a war--long forgotten about by now--on the very land that we climb upon. It raged on for decades. No winners were had, but there were certainly plenty of losers. The souls had a difficult time escaping from the valleys due to the enormous cliffs, for no one had sent class five yet. These souls then, had but one option. To dig thei way out of the valley. Unfortunately, a metaphysical collapse enmeshed all of the souls deep beneath the ground, continuing their war for all of eternity. That is, that was what they had begun to expect. One day the faint whirring of a drill caught their attention. Like the spray projected from the hoses eating their pizza in Miguel's backyard, so too did the oil spray out of the ground--and with it, the furious souls. The story behind the reforging of a friendship between these souls is not well documented, but whisperings remain of the usual story: A common enemy. Despite the "do not spray" sign clearly posted on the land, climbers could not help themselves. In doing so, the climbers likely reunited these ghostly beings. Mortality, it turns out, is a major disadvantage when being targetted by a united front of spirits. There are many ways in which these old souls love to interfere. Of course, the favorite old souls' favorite way of interfering is to screw with people's brake hands. This is why we don't hear about so many accidents elsewhere.
True story.
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:11 pm
by THB
Sorry for my previous post, I didn't read through the entire thread to see that Meadows and some others already commented about this issue in a similar fashion to my response above.
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:17 pm
by THB
Wolf wrote:
I don't know how to use the SUM properly, and have failed to find instructions through google. I do know that everyone I've ever watched using it were using it improperly, as they were all holding the handle down to pay out rope and did not have their break hands on. Of course that's not very many people given the rarity of the SUM.
I believe you... but I find this surprising to hear because in my experience I have found that the SUM is the easiest locking-assist device on the market to use properly (according to Faders instructions on how to use it) without holding down the camming mechanism.
Walk up and down the Undertow wall on a busy weekend day and you're bound to see people blocking the cam on the Gri-Gri time and time again to feed slack to their climber. This is why I dislike the Gri-Gri (I don't dislike it for personal use). You can also easily hold down the cam on a Cinch to feed out slack. Holding down the cam on the SUM is the least intuitive way to use it and I've never personally seen anyone use it this way.
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:21 pm
by Meadows
Spikeddem wrote:This is why we don't hear about so many accidents elsewhere.
True story.
That's because we at the RRG love the RRG too much to fathom a world outside of the RRG to talk about it on RRC.
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:25 pm
by THB
Unfortunately incidents like this happen all to often (in my opinion). I think it's unfair to blame the device, though, because I can recall similar situations where the Cinch was involved or where the Gri-Gri was involved.
I do think that in a very high percentage of accidents like this one that happen, the fault is because the belay device was being used improperly (user error and not error of the device).
I was not there to tell you whether the device was being used properly or not. But I have since seen the device that was being used, and I can confidently say that this 1 particular SUM can fail when being used properly. So, in this rare case, I will say that based on what I've seen so far, it is believable that everything was hooked up properly and everything was being used properly, and it was the fault of the device.
Like I said in my earlier post, I hope to (and plan to) do some testing on this SUM and other SUM's to show the rest of the community what was going on in this situation. I hope to have this information out as soon as possible.
Re: Decking at the Lode...
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:30 am
by Wolf
caribe wrote:-Recent climbing history teaches us that if there is a cam to hold open, someone will hold it open.
-A dispassionate self-critique has me admitting that it will be me in that odd, one-in-million situation, even though it is not my SOP. For example, my buddy is around an arete with a little rope drag and I can't see him. He is trying to make a desperate clip. He wants the rope right now! Squeeze, yard slack and fall. Depending on the parameters he may deck.
-I have to question self because he and I are in this together. Whatever happens to him happens to me and gets translated into sleepless nights and therapy. It comes out as an audible' FUCK!', out of the blue for no apparent reason when I think back and remember. The peace in my life is forever disturbed, while his peace may be forever.
-The drama and the chaos get written in the margin between systole and diastole plus that half second in which I don't realize he is already off the rock.
-Devices that routinely include moments of cam disengagement in their operation are at these moments obviously unsafe. Manufacturers know this when they plaster all the red exclamation marks and the skull and crossbones on the section in the manual describing these operations. The Grigri has been out for about 20 years.(1) In 2008 Petzl published a new 'safer' technique "developed by climbers and promoted in 2005 on 8a.nu."(2) The mere fact that the users are developing more practicable techniques than the manufacturer indicates a questionable level of complexity inherent in the device.
-I think the Grigri history also reflects a native overestimation of the human factor, an overestimation of the ability to react. Louis L'amor Western drug store novels and Hollywood action films likely contribute to the myth that we are fast as lightening. The truth is when shit goes wrong, either your your autoblock device works, or your hand is on the break or your buddy has decked. Clevis description reflects the myth that we all at least partially hold: "
It takes like two seconds to fall from 70 feet. In those two seconds he couldn't regain control of the belay."
-No sorry he could not gain control of the belay, and in a similar situation, neither could you. Clevis has the right perspective about never losing control of the break, but please ditch the myth.
Everyone repeat after me: In full realization that I have a nervous system based on characteristically slow diffusion processes --
albeit across nanometric scales--I have no choice but to ditch the myth that I hold so dear regarding my Batman-like reaction time.
1)
http://www.zionadventures.com/ZBlog/gea ... ing-again/
2)
http://www.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread. ... ryCode=NLD
Well written and exactly right.