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The only solution is to Flee. The remainder of my fall is being spend at Obed, linville, redrocks possibly T-wall. The red will still be here in december and July. That being said i'm new to climbing in this area so it's probably me who you'll be fleeing from.

You should also make sure to have enough trail days so that you could roll a fat cripple up to the crag to climb. Access is important.

pigsteak wrote:naw, eric, you are spot on....pies n pints is excellent pizza

First off, I'd appreciate if everyone stops mentioning other climbing areas, I like the NRG and the Obed just the way they are.

A lot has been said about the reasons for crowds at the Red, and they're all true: cheap camping, rising popularity of climbing gyms, great guidebook, proximity to tons of population centers, publicity by both climbing media and even the rrgcc in order to get funds; they're all attracting the masses.

Above all, it's the nature of the rock. Technique for climbing the Red's pockets translates incredibly easily from a gym background, perhaps more easily than any other climbing area in the nation. Also unlike a lot of other climbing areas, the fact that so many climbs here are endurance-oriented, and lack single hard moves, really make it easy for "project climbers" to get on routes over their heads, bolt-to-bolt, and convince themselves that they can send. This is not a bad thing by itself; it's the key to improvement, but when combined with the above non-climbing factors, it creates a shitshow.

Finally, we have the ways that developers and users approach the rock: safe bolting, some grade featherbagging that caters to scorecard wankers, and perma/long term project draws all make it easier for people to get on climbs. Regardless of whether you agree or not, all of these contribute to rising crowds here.


The solution is going to be tough, and deserves serious discussion. We have to find something between the extremes of a complete free-for-all, and a complete draconian shut-down. But, all of these actions deserve consideration from us, the community, and public and private land managers:

-raise the prices at Miguel's
-start sandbagging route grades more
-charge for parking
-actively acquire and develop more crags (crowds are more concentrated at crags this fall with the closing of Roadside, obviously)
-start cutting down on the culture of accepting perma-draws, whether by land managers' policy, or just a general shift in the mass consensus
-increase education efforts to show visitors what is and is not accepted here
-enact more bureaucratic hurdles (what if everyone had to go through some sort of Hueco-style training/education seminar in order to climb at PMRP?)

None of these actions would work by themselves. I'm sure that, say, this weekend, when word gets out that there are no permadraws at the Undertow Wall, numbers at the Motherlode would probably be down 30% or so. But most people who would opt to not go there would simply go to another crag at the Red; they would not stay home. Similarly, I guarantee that if Ray were to, say, downgrade Snooker to 12c/d, numbers of climbers on it would significantly go down, but those climbers would just go clog up Spank, or the Force.

What I'm saying is that we all here needs to rethink prevailing ethics, both from a bottom-up community perspective, and a top-down managerial perspective.

Wanna see less people at your favorite rr crag?

TL;DNR: Make things more of a pain in the ass.

Long version:

- Charge more for camping. Not because it will discourage dirtbags, who are actually a community resource for transmitting the culture of what is appropriate, because of their continuity, but because $2 camping sure encourages the hell out of some college outdoor clubs to come stay for a week. Which usually have a very high climber to leader ratio (making them TR gangbangers, and slow) and also those one or few leaders are often already trying to impress/maintain control over the group, so while they may be ignorant, they're also resistant to anyone saying anything to them.

- ask/require that college outdoor groups that are official club outings register or something before they camp at Miguel's/climb at PMRP/climb at Muir. (I think that Muir already asks that groups above a certain size check in before climbing- how well does that work?) This would at least give the community a point of access to tell people what's not OK. Reprint the grigri belay instructions, tell them to let people climb through if their rope is hanging with no one climbing on it, ect.

- Downgrade everything two letters. Anybody think Ro Shampo would have been loved so much if it'd been 11c?

- Make everyone park farther away from the climbing. You think the lode would be so crowded if you had to walk up that hill at the end of the day? there's pretty much always an inverse relationship between douches and approach time.



Things that won't change-

- the rock is steep. Most sport falls are going to BE safe, as well as FEEL incredibly safe. This is a huge part of why people like the red better than the New. Leading at the New in the 5.12 range is much more mentally difficult than leading at the Red in the 5.12 range.

- the route are, for the vast majority's part, not reachy. there are intermediates and FEET all over the place. This is also different than the New, or the Gunks, or some of the NC areas. This contributes to the "friendly" feel.


Things I don't think should change-

- Bolting practices. Deliberately scary or stupid-long runouts on rap-bolted sport routes are just dumb.

Actually, there's one more note I'd like to make. One way the "community" can communicate it's values to new climbers? You can open your fucking mouth and say something at the crag.

So on my very first trip to the Red, when you could still camp up near Oil Crack Crag, me and a whole group of other college douches borrowed somebody's daddy's SUV and filled it to capacity and took a fall break trip to the red. (we were camping up there, I don't think we actually went to Miguel's that trip.)

And we ignorantly parked the car in front of an oil thing when we went to the crag. And how did we find out we should not have done that? Terry (*pours out some 40*) announced his presence at the crag by cursing out the ignorant fucks that had done that, all the way up to the crag. So we were kinda like "who the fuck is this guy yelling at us?" But we moved the car.

And then when I was trying (and failing) to put up some route, and getting the only kind of catch my friends knew how to give, sit-down-and-lock-off-just-like-top-rope-yeah?, Terry yelled at us again. (what the fuck, old man??) But then he gave us a lesson in soft catches. And then he rescued our draws when I couldn't get to the top of whatever 5.10 it was.

So yeah. Another way to so something about ignorant fucks- you could actually try reaching out to them at the crag instead of bitching on the internet.

The number of routes 5.5-5.9 in the Red is ridiculous. If you want the crowds to thin, stop bolting those.

I also agree with the cheap camping, it's SO easy to live there for a season or even two. But it's the weekenders that are creating all the accidents and shitshow atmosphere that seems to be the issue of late. I think the first step has already been done: stripping fixed gear where it's not a necessity. Obviously a lot of routes need it there, but a lot don't either. The Undertow is not THAT steep...neither is the GMC wall. Plenty of crags in the Chattanooga area have a no fixed draw rule and you just have cleaner biners...not that hard to clean, and they are steeper than the Undertow and GMC.

It might be worthwhile to compare what's going on in the Red to what's happening in OTHER worldclass US climbing areas around these parts that don't have any crowds. Take some notes and execute.

clausti wrote:Actually, there's one more note I'd like to make. One way the "community" can communicate it's values to new climbers? You can open your fucking mouth and say something at the crag.

So on my very first trip to the Red, when you could still camp up near Oil Crack Crag, me and a whole group of other college douches borrowed somebody's daddy's SUV and filled it to capacity and took a fall break trip to the red. (we were camping up there, I don't think we actually went to Miguel's that trip.)

And we ignorantly parked the car in front of an oil thing when we went to the crag. And how did we find out we should not have done that? Terry (*pours out some 40*) announced his presence at the crag by cursing out the ignorant fucks that had done that, all the way up to the crag. So we were kinda like "who the fuck is this guy yelling at us?" But we moved the car.

And then when I was trying (and failing) to put up some route, and getting the only kind of catch my friends knew how to give, sit-down-and-lock-off-just-like-top-rope-yeah?, Terry yelled at us again. (what the fuck, old man??) But then he gave us a lesson in soft catches. And then he rescued our draws when I couldn't get to the top of whatever 5.10 it was.

So yeah. Another way to so something about ignorant fucks- you could actually try reaching out to them at the crag instead of bitching on the internet.

this is the best ever..I also had a similar experience on the very first route I bolted at the Red.

Y'all are forgetting one of the best reasons to go to the Red: bourbon!

But seriously, I think the biggest reason folks from Ontario (and New York) are going there in droves is advertising. Magazines, word of mouth, youtube videos, etc. In the last 2 weeks, I've had 4 separate Ontarians email me or facebook youtube videos of the Red, two asking me what beta I can give about those climbs. (maybe we should fine everyone who posts a youtube video of Ro Shampo... use that money to buy some more property). In general, the Red has had a lot more advertising over the last decade than The New, Obed, North Carolina, or the Gunks. It's known for awesome rock quality, it's where the rockstars go in the fall so it must be good, there are a large number of crags each with enough 4* or 5* climbs in close proximity to each other, there are enough easy sport climbs for your less experienced friends, it's a great place to learn and teach new climbers, etc... all of that has been very well-advertised recently (yes, if we hadn't advertised, we maybe wouldn't have made the mortgage payments every year).

Also, it's south, so it's warm! Leading run-out multi-pitch trad on cold, damp rock when you're shivering uncontrollably and can't feel your fingers kinda sucks (did that last weekend, 2 weeks earlier I wore my mittens while seconding a climb). Up here, the season is wrapping up. I'll probably take a couple more one-day trips to some crag on warm days, but I doubt I'll have any more overnight climbing trips in this area til May. So if you live up north and can take off 4+ days, you go to the Red.

Also, it's a 1-day drive for anyone on the eastern seaboard or in southern Ontario, so it's an ideal long-weekend or vacation climbing destination... cheaper than flying to Vegas or Yosemite or El Potrero Chico, but not the same old place we go every weekend.

(and to those calling knitting safe, clearly you've never impaled a 1/8" steel needle into your hand (yes, I'm a klutz, what's your point))

Eliminate all the routes rated 5.11a or higher.

when i hear 'management' all i think of is "Yosemite Climbing Management Plan". not to judge that.

but if the state discovers that this climbing and biking thing makes money and there are 'issues' i bet it'll become a Recreational Area, dws will be a crime, and you'll pay more than two dollars a night to camp.

problem "solved"