RRC Archives

Pigsteak: I hear you, and agree. That would be nice, but Camhead reiterated my point perfectly. We're not talking about what would be ideal, we're talking about what will happen. Again, before the steel draws were there, why didn't the hypothetical guy take his personal quicks off of Ale 8?

Has anyone thought that maybe the draws were removed for the massive glue-in rebolting effort that has been in the works? Maybe the draws just got removed, and then will be put back after the rebolt. Is that happening this week? Though I think that mid-october is the absolute worst time to strip and rebolt the lode....It's going to be pretty embarassing if I created a username and got all fired up about nothing.

The rebolting process in ongoing and will take a while, and as far as I know it has no relationship to the stripping of draws.

pigsteak wrote:FS land does not allow fixed perma draws..there should never be fixed draws at left flank, military, etc...never. you see them, strip them and leave them at the base with a note.

Well, then you'll have to have climbing police checking Left Flank/Military regularly.

It has been a long-standing climbing community practice to leave the project draws alone, and the project draws have been on routes at the Military/Left Flank for many years.
Until it becomes well-known to the entire climbing community that the project draws in these particular areas are a big no-no-no, the draws will continue to hang.

i got no business posting in this thread, but if what i imagine to be scores of draws on dozens of routes are gone, this had to be a deliberate and coordinated action by a group of experienced (and likely thoughtful) climbers.

also, pigsteak is correct as my own limited 'crew' experience attests, routes with hanging draws tempt the underprepared (draw a crowd)

clif wrote:i got no business posting in this thread, but if what i imagine to be scores of draws on dozens of routes are gone, this had to be a deliberate and coordinated action by a group of experienced (and likely thoughtful) climbers.

i like the idea that masked bandito zorro climbers came in the night and absconded with them for the greater good. they may have even symbolically thrown the chains into the red river, returning them to the earth forever.






i also like the idea that Tryle Tutt learned how to climb 5.13.

Regardless of whether you think perma draw's are good or bad (that discussion could go on forever), why strip them after such an effort to raise money to put them up in the first place? There has still been no explanation from anyone involved or anyone who knows why they were taken down. I'm not a huge fan of perma draws everywhere, but I did give some money to help put them up for safety reasons (because as it's already been said aluminum ones get put up all the time anyways), and I'm kinda pissed that I just threw away my money because someone else decided they had the right/authority to take them down.

i think some 'rock stars' are having some fun with the regional 'playerz'

Kipp, lets play some more devil's advocate here. I saw project draws on many climbs at Area 6 when I went there... why were they there, surely the crew climbing there at the time had the know how to clean draws? Does that mean next time I am at one of your secret crags I can just yank your gear? This of course is on routes that were being projected, and not still in the bolting phase. This is also not a threat, because I would never do that, but more of a question of why you state this hard edged stance against perma/project draws? Maybe those were not your draws but it had to be somebody in your small crew of approved friends at the secret crag during the crags development period.

Again, ideal world, we all hang and clean our own draws. However, we are not living in an ideal world. And yes you are correct to an extent that if there were no perma's at the lode then people would not get on those climbs. I know I would not be trying things in the cave because 1. I would not own enough draws and 2. I sure as hell would not want to hang and clean that project every weekend even if there were a few cleaning draws. What would probably happen is I would hang a few draws, and a few friends would hang a few draws and we would leave them there to get manky. Just honesty and it aligns with historical trends at the lode.

I don't think removing the perma draws will help with decreasing traffic at the load, because the majority of people will still go there even with out draws on the routes. With perma draws on the routes the climbers get on the climbs and send it or fall and come down, but by removing the perma draws the climbers must remove their draws on their way down, or if they don't/can't make it to the top they will have to go to the top to get there draws down, which prevents a steady rotation of climbers. The time wasted by people cleaning the routes and bolt to bolting routes that were a bit over there head doesn't help with making the load a better place to climb. Let's face it the load is popular place to climb because of the large quantity of stellar routes in close proximity, it is going to be busy, so we should make it run as smoothly as possible. 0eople donated loads of time and money for perma-draws so we could make it safe, fun, and excellent place for people to climb.

All draws have been stripped except for the cave and a handful of other routes. PDs have been left on the majority of routes on the undertow for safe cleaning and on all anchors. The hardware that has been stripped has all been labeled and is at Miguel's(the Venturas have had no involvement in this by the way) so if you own any of the hardware you can come claim it there.