RRC Archives

God I love that story.

THB wrote:

727foxtree wrote:I hear you - again, all I'm saying is their thumb technique is a good way to avoid grasping the entire device. It seems like a good way to prevent someone from locking their hand down in surprise when a fall happens. As to Petzl's inconsistency in their video to manual information, that IS weird and confusing for people. I agree with you, and I missed that totally. Nothing like muddying the water with safety information! Ughhhh.

Thanks for point that out...

it's not the "thumb technique" that makes that technique work. it's the fact that the brake hand is still on the rope that feeds out below the grigri. if you use the "thumb technique" but you don't keep your brake hand on the rope, then you're doing the technique wrong. that technique still makes me a bit nervous, however, because you are still blocking the cam, which is not ideal. Petzl points this out in their video, as they encourage you to limit using this technique when possible and if you do use this technique they are pretty straight forward about using it and then going back into the regular "atc" position asap. this is one of the reasons i prefer the sum to the grigri, because you never block the cam on the sum when you are using it properly.

I simply said "thumb technique" as a way to reference how they were doing it. I'm not trying to say the opposable digit is the fail-safe here. I thought everyone would make the assumption that the brake hand should stay on the brake side of the rope. I like this technique because it's easy to pay out rope w/o having to move my hand much from the brake position. Obviously, when you can do it, feeding rope manually through the Grigri like it's an ATC or something is the easiest, but when the rope engages the cam as the climber pulls for slack, putting your thumb on it seems like a good method that avoids completely grabbing the device.

And I don't think this is a gumby issue. A friend of mine, who's a Lode regular, has dogmatically claimed letting go of the device altogether in a fall is the best method - basically trusting 100% in the device. I think that's fucking nuts. I'm not sure if they've had any close calls with this method, but I don't think people's not having had any issues is necessarily a solid argument. Many people get lucky for a long time, then the circumstances align and shit hits the fan. How many people have caught something last minute before beginning a climb that should be adjusted - proper tie-throughs, doubling back, etc., etc. Mistakes can happen to anyone.

Who would just let go as a regular technique when someone falls? That's pretty insane. The person can't be bothered to grab the break end of the rope?

caribe wrote:

dustonian wrote:Oh god, here we go again...

I am not going here and u 2 should restrain yourself.

dustin, I think we got this down....lol

It sounds like it was not the break hand that was the problem it was the hand that held down the cam. Break hand or no break hand would not have fixed this. Take a gri gri, skinny rope and hold the cam open with one hand - I doubt you can stop a fall like this with your other hand, brake hand.

stix wrote:everything else is avoiding the point in my opinion

THB wrote:there are plenty of wrong ways to use belay devices. a wrong method coupled with a squeezing brake hand on the rope doesn't equal a safe catch 100% of the time.

I'm pretty sure you just proved stix's point. Instead of arguing minutiae and memorizing detailed instructions, if people just learned and understood the basic principles of catching a fall, there would be fewer threads like this.

TradMike wrote:It sounds like it was not the break hand that was the problem it was the hand that held down the cam. Break hand or no break hand would not have fixed this. Take a gri gri, skinny rope and hold the cam open with one hand - I doubt you can stop a fall like this with your other hand, brake hand.

If the brake hand was braking instead of holding the cam open, it wouldn't have been holding the cam open. I've never seen someone using a GriGri hold the cam open with their left while braking with their right.

I love my SUM. Two pinch points and you don't hold down a cam to feed slack, but for some reason, they are not on the market.

Yasmeen wrote:

TradMike wrote:It sounds like it was not the break hand that was the problem it was the hand that held down the cam. Break hand or no break hand would not have fixed this. Take a gri gri, skinny rope and hold the cam open with one hand - I doubt you can stop a fall like this with your other hand, brake hand.

If the brake hand was braking instead of holding the cam open, it wouldn't have been holding the cam open. I've never seen someone using a GriGri hold the cam open with their left while braking with their right.

I guess my point is that there is not much time to react in a situation where the cam is held down and the climber falls. I think we need to go one step closer to the problem and focus on the held down cam and not all this emphasis on brake hand because as you will see it doesn't mean anything in this situation. It takes 1.25 seconds to fall 25ft. It takes the average human auto driver 1.5 seconds to see a need to brake and actually fully depress the brake pedal. If this holds true to some climbers, a brake hand won't mean a thing because the climber decked .25 seconds before the brake hand engaged the rope. Now getting the hand off the cam, which would be a much quicker reaction time, would save the day because a gri gri will more than likely work on its own without a brake. Even better, don't belay with a gri gri if you can't belay without holding the cam down. But if you do hold the cam down please do so with lightning speed on and off. It you ride the cam, so to speak, you will eventually drop someone.

Meadows wrote:I love my SUM. Two pinch points and you don't hold down a cam to feed slack

There are more faithful belay devices than the Grigri. The Grigri needs to be more idiot-proof. The Sum is likely one. The Click-Up is definitely another. Auto-block is never held open at any point during use, it is used just like an ATC, it auto blocks if the climber falls.

TradMike wrote:I guess my point is that there is not much time to react . . . .

I like TradMike's perspective in general. I think we underestimate our reaction time, it is longer than we think. Shit happens and bam! you are hanging from the rope before you can think about it or bam! the climber is hauling you off the ground after an unexpected fall and you have done nothing at all to mitigate the situation, no time to plan a soft catch, no time to think twice. The scenarios happen often. If the cam is held open on the Grigri and you have looked away from the climber for a second, perhaps at a potential twist in the rope coming your way, that is a perhaps more than a second of reaction time that you give up on top of the natural reaction time native to all humans. Petzl knows this and hence the nature of the warning in their video, "DON'T RIDE THE CAM DURING OPERATION" complete with skull and crossbones with fragment marks coming from the skull! It is all chill until it happens to you or I as either belayer or climber and then we have to live with it . . . or not.