Climbing Accident in Muir

[THB]

I think the instinct to grab tightly can be atributed to gumbies being taught how to belay on a gris gris first. When I was taught on an atc, and Caribe can probably verify, one of the first things I was taught was to forget about this instinct with the rope feeding hand and assume the breaking position with the break hand. I think that learning on the gris gris, people often forget to teach these fundamentals and people move on from gumbydome having never learned, or had engrained into the fabric of thier being, the proper fundamentals of breaking device functionality. 999 times out of 1000 its not an issue, but occasionally it is.

This seems like a logical reasoning. I was also taught how to belay on an ATC, so maybe that's why I find it bizarre to have the instinct to grab tightly on the end of rope above the device. Similar to you, in a fall situation, I just assume the "locked-off" position with the break-hand.

[caribe]

kramps and THB: ditto. now if you can use atcs, buy the clickup. nuff said.

[THB]

On a side-note... I was doing a route a while back with my regular climbing partner and the route pulled up over a bulge such that she couldn't see me after the bulge. It had been raining and the route was wet up top, but we couldn't tell that from the ground. After pulling the bulge and being just a few feet from the next bolt, I realized that this is where the route was going to end for me on that day due to the wet rock. So, I just dropped. Normally I would have said something ("I'm off" or whatever), but on this particular day, I just decided to let go not thinking about the fact that my belayer couldn't see me. There was no one else at the crag that day and I'm confident that my belayer had her full attention on me. She said that at first it seemed like I was just pulling up rope to clip the next bolt, so she fed me more slack so that I could clip, but then she saw me falling past the bulge (and yelling by this point), and so she let go and assumed the "break-position" with her break-hand, and I was fine. Granted I fell a ways further than I thought I was going to.

A very similar situation also happened to a friend of ours, so it's not like this is an isolated event.

Moral of the story... If she wasn't paying attention, or if there had been lots of people at the base of the cliff distracting her... it would have only been another split second before I was on the deck. Also, had she been blocking the cam to feed me slack (and I'm positive that she was not), and not had her undivided attention on me, I would have decked for sure.

I think it boils down to people not taking belaying as a serious endeavor, but it is an extremely serious endeavor where your full and complete attention should be on the climber. You shouldn't be blocking the cam to feed slack, you shouldn't be talking while you belay, you should just be belaying... just focused on your climber, because for those few minutes, that climber's life is entirely in your hands.

[Shamis]

No need... as I stated in my previous post, I've already done this testing. I have video footage of the tests, it used to be posted on the internet, but I don't think the website is still running where the videos were posted. I think I still have them on my personal computer though.

You should really post those video's again, because your claims of easily failing a gri-gri on a 10.3 (unless you used a 100 pound climber that wasn't actually falling, just easing onto the rope), and also exploding a gri-gri with a knot sound pretty far fetched.

[Toad]

Was there a fireball with the exploding gri-gri?

[THB]

Let me try to be more specific...

1) I never said that we exploded a gri-gri, I said that we exploded a "locking-assist" device.
2) I guess I shouldn't have used the word explode, I should have used the phrase "pried apart".
3) At between 3 and 4 kN both a gri-gri and a cinch start slipping. This is actually a good thing though, because it makes the system more dynamic. Anytime that you can make the system more dynamic, that's actually beneficial, because it reduces the peak loading forces in the event of a fall.
4) When these tests were done, it was done with a machine that slow pulled at between 3 and 4 kN, so that the rope would start slipping through the device.
5) Different knots were tested... butterfly knot, overhand knot, figure-8, etc...
6) On the gri-gri, the knot would tighten so much and start introducing weird forces on the gri-gri... what would normally happen is the rope would get cut because of how tight the knot would get.
7) On the cinch, the knot would tighten so much that either the rope would cut or the knot would get sucked into the device and pry the 2 pieces apart.
8) In either case, tying a knot on the break-hand-side of a "locking-assist" device is not a good idea.
9) 3 to 4 kN are very realistic forces in the event of a sport climbing fall

...if I'm still not being clear enough, please let me know.

[caribe]

8) In either case, tying a knot on the break-hand-side of a "locking-assist" device is not a good idea.

But it's catch 22: if you tie the knot you have a very slim chance of prying the device apart and dropping the climber; if you don't tie the knot the rope could slip through and you drop the climber. How do you infer from your data not to tie the knot?

[krampus]

while I am not a fan of shamis's reasoning, I have to be honest, your arguments are not very convincing. First and foremost, I have never had a slow pulling fall, they are usually closer to explosive than your gris gris reference. And no fireballs either, unless I climb in nude, I am a ginger after all.

[Toad]

How close to the belay device was the knot tied? Right on it, or arms length? What color was the rope? What was the relative humidity?

[SCIN]

I was there with THB when the greeg exploded. I think it was intentional though because he started screaming about al queda and bin laden and shit and had a turbon on with a white robe. He had a big ass black beard too. Then he asked everyone to huddle around because he had a secret to tell and BAM!!!! He pulled the lever on the greeg and that shit blew a mile high. Fortunately he forgot to load it with shrapnel so he just blew his dick off. Shit was crazy man. Do NOT fuck with al queda and greegs.