One I use quickdraws, though that has its own problems
two, most importantly I weight the direct connection before I ever untie or get cleaning slack
three, I always stay tied in, always!!! I pull a bight tie and a overhand knot and clip it into my belay loop, NOT MY GEAR LOOP. even if the the direct link were to fail I would only fall 10 feet or so. Also I am still in my last bolt so even if the anchor failed I would still be tied in even after untying my main knot I would still not hit the ground.
I am never not tied in or backed up when cleaning. Please if cleaning on toprope keep the last draw clipped to the rope until on the way down, and you are sure the system is working.
NRG Kaymoor Area Accident
The victim was not either. Like you said, it is very important to fully weight and examine the system before any change. This applies to your system before you receive cleaning slack and it applies to your belay or rappel connection before you undo your direct/static system.Andrew wrote:I am never not tied in or backed up when cleaning.
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Clevis Hitch
- Posts: 1461
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:10 pm
Look, you guys are all over the place! One says this, the other says that. I propose that all climbing be suspended until we review our respective systems. (more academic than actual). Just like the military does after they crash a plane. They suspend all flights and investigate. Once they figure out what happened, they go through some pretty extensive "retraining". Accentuating the part in the procedure that was ignored and caused the "failure" on retraining with new proceedures that eliminate the possibility of a reoccurence.
So by my count this is where we are:
(1) the problem has been identified. It was using Petzl "string" rubber ends on unstitched runners
(2) Can't blame petzl because its in their literature.
(3) I know that i have used a similar set-up in the past. I got lucky and don't use that system any more.
(4) It wasn't a lack of experience that caused the incident. It was overconfidence in the sense that the system wasn't proved before it was weighted. The system had a flaw.
the solution is this. Review your system, what ever it is. Do the same thing everytime. Read the literature on your respective gear pieces and learn its limitations. Do your system in front of someone you trust and let them criticize your system. Eliminate all doubt. Refer to your copy of "Freedom of the Hills" if needed.
Have fun climbing.... 8)
So by my count this is where we are:
(1) the problem has been identified. It was using Petzl "string" rubber ends on unstitched runners
(2) Can't blame petzl because its in their literature.
(3) I know that i have used a similar set-up in the past. I got lucky and don't use that system any more.
(4) It wasn't a lack of experience that caused the incident. It was overconfidence in the sense that the system wasn't proved before it was weighted. The system had a flaw.
the solution is this. Review your system, what ever it is. Do the same thing everytime. Read the literature on your respective gear pieces and learn its limitations. Do your system in front of someone you trust and let them criticize your system. Eliminate all doubt. Refer to your copy of "Freedom of the Hills" if needed.
Have fun climbing.... 8)
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
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the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
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Clevis Hitch
- Posts: 1461
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:10 pm
This type of incident scares the haddees out of me. It wasn't just some gumby taking a dive, it was a experienced climber. Even though it was a gumby type of mistake. This was someone who'd been climbing for years and this shouldn't have happened to them. But it did.
The the thing that is most disturbing about this incident is that if I ever die climbing it will be in an incident just like this one. Experienced climber makes a "gumby" mistake. It'll be some sort of crucial information that I won't have or some step that I "gloss" over. I think the biggest things that come to mind.
Know your system.
Follow the same procedure every time
Submit your technique to peer review.
Follow the same procedure every time.
We could probably come up with one of those snappy words like P.O.T.U.S. or BBROYGBVGW or some such.
Any suggestions?
The the thing that is most disturbing about this incident is that if I ever die climbing it will be in an incident just like this one. Experienced climber makes a "gumby" mistake. It'll be some sort of crucial information that I won't have or some step that I "gloss" over. I think the biggest things that come to mind.
Know your system.
Follow the same procedure every time
Submit your technique to peer review.
Follow the same procedure every time.
We could probably come up with one of those snappy words like P.O.T.U.S. or BBROYGBVGW or some such.
Any suggestions?
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
Most certainly not, I didn't think it could be taken like that. What I mean is that it is an easier pill to swallow when someone less experienced does something we all know is wrong, but just makes a mistake. It is not less tragic, but easier on the psyche.kato wrote:What do you mean exactly? Surely not what it sounds like...
This was an experienced climber doing the right thing. Two points in direct to a bolted anchor. Yet a flaw was still able to work its way into the simplest of systems that should never fail. Do some of the experiments that are being tested on RC.com. I don't use this setup with the strings, but it is very easy to replicate.
So again, kato, definitely did not intend to say that it is better that one person is hurt over the other. Most of you don't know me personally, but I would give you my last buck, last bolt or a lift to wherever you are going. Most of the drivel I spew on here is just in fun. But this stuff is getting serious and it is starting to mess with my head. The two most recent accidents were situations we are in every single time we climb. Not people pushing the limits and climbing RX trad where they deck if they fall. Not free soloing. This is standard procedure and the process broke down in a most unintended way. The result is devastating.
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anticlmber
- Posts: 3393
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:34 am
My condolences to the climber's family and friends.
Before I climbed I'd ask climbing friends about the dangers of climbing. The answer I got most frequently, while rather cold-hearted, was that User Error caused most all fatal climbing incidents. While these 2010 fatalities are extremely hard to swallow, they do fall under the general category of User Error. This one is even scarier than most because of the the ease of which the mistake was made and the fact that many were not aware this sort of setup creates a potentially fatal safety issue. The best we can do is to continue to climb on the sharp-end, don't add unneeded links to any system and triple check things when you need to, ie: when going off belay at the anchors.
SERENE: Secure Effective Redundant Equalized No Extension.
Climb safe.
Before I climbed I'd ask climbing friends about the dangers of climbing. The answer I got most frequently, while rather cold-hearted, was that User Error caused most all fatal climbing incidents. While these 2010 fatalities are extremely hard to swallow, they do fall under the general category of User Error. This one is even scarier than most because of the the ease of which the mistake was made and the fact that many were not aware this sort of setup creates a potentially fatal safety issue. The best we can do is to continue to climb on the sharp-end, don't add unneeded links to any system and triple check things when you need to, ie: when going off belay at the anchors.
SERENE: Secure Effective Redundant Equalized No Extension.
Climb safe.
"No one has to do something he doesn't want to do for the rest of his life. But then again, if that's what you end up doing, by all means convince yourself that you had to do it; you'll have lots of company." HST
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COTrained26
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:11 pm
This is very, very sad and scary. It defintiely makes me question my own method for anchoring into the top of a route. I usually carry an 18 inch (sometimes 2) runners with one carabiner clipped into the belay loop and the other, eventually, clipped into the anchors at the top. I then weight the runners before calling off belay to make sure they hold. This is how i was taught and have done it this way ever since by as i mentioned before, i now question that method in light of what happened to this experienced climber. Admonish me harshly if i am overseeing some aspect of the set-up.