In this case, I don't see how it matters. If she counts it as a send, good for her, if not, good for her. I can't remember the last time I toproped a route, but that doesn't mean that everyone should climb that way. Climbing is a very individualized, selfish pursuit.caribe wrote:So why ask? She is seeking the opinion of others. I think that the opinion of others matters in almost all cases. We are social animals.chriss wrote:The only opinion that matters is your own.
Sending
I don't see the problem (stunning the hog?). Did Sharma clip all the bolts on Jumbo Love?One-Fall wrote:
True, heavyc, but what are your feelings about this scenario:
I was on a route years ago, where the crux of the route was clipping the 3rd bolt. I worked it on TR and got it wired, and on the redpoint, i skipped the bolt. Still a send?
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Anticrainbow
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:50 pm
A send is a send, but TR sends should be disclaimed because of the mental masturbation they allow, i.e. "I'm a climber because I climb rock with no fear (of falling more that three feet).
Who cares if it's sport or trad. It is not natural to fall off of anything, even if you have adequate safety equipment in place. So, naturally, leading places the climber in a mental and physical space where the possibility of falling becomes very real and sometimes probable. It follows that leading makes the climb harder because of the natural aversion to falling. Anyone can get used to falling, and should to do it safely, but I would argue that it is never instinctive to let go of something solid with 50 feet of air below. Climbing on toprope allows a mental cushion that you will only fall a short distance before being stopped, and at any time you can yell "TAKE" and have the comfortable security of you harness.
Who cares if it's sport or trad. It is not natural to fall off of anything, even if you have adequate safety equipment in place. So, naturally, leading places the climber in a mental and physical space where the possibility of falling becomes very real and sometimes probable. It follows that leading makes the climb harder because of the natural aversion to falling. Anyone can get used to falling, and should to do it safely, but I would argue that it is never instinctive to let go of something solid with 50 feet of air below. Climbing on toprope allows a mental cushion that you will only fall a short distance before being stopped, and at any time you can yell "TAKE" and have the comfortable security of you harness.
Since I have the previously smashed, now fused ankles that cannot hit the wall in a fall, I can't climb at my limit on lead unless it is steep enough that I won't touch the wall in a fall. So, if I climb a vert route at my limit, I pretty much have to send it on TR. When I was still in my air cast for walking, but could climb in my climbing shoe, I "sent" Burlier's Bane and BetaVul Pipline on TR, then sent 'em on lead an our after (once I knew I wouldn't fall). Same thing on Wildfire by accident (sent it on TR at the end of the day burn) so I had to go back the next day and do it on lead for it to "count." I guess I knew I couldn't have credit for it if i didn't lead 'em.
But, some routes I would not try to send on lead because I cannot fall and hit my feet. Dreamscape at Sandrock is one of those. I have "sent it" on TR about 50 times, but have never lead it because I could fall on the slab at the bottom. Other routes that I don't fall on, but never lead b/c they are too vert w/ Breakfast Burrito, Fire and Brimstone, Chris Shnyder, Centerfire, Martin Rides Again, Different Strokes etc.
So...I think it should "count" if you send on TR (same strength and talent) But, it means something different if you do it on lead (you had the extra fear factor to deal with).
But, some routes I would not try to send on lead because I cannot fall and hit my feet. Dreamscape at Sandrock is one of those. I have "sent it" on TR about 50 times, but have never lead it because I could fall on the slab at the bottom. Other routes that I don't fall on, but never lead b/c they are too vert w/ Breakfast Burrito, Fire and Brimstone, Chris Shnyder, Centerfire, Martin Rides Again, Different Strokes etc.
So...I think it should "count" if you send on TR (same strength and talent) But, it means something different if you do it on lead (you had the extra fear factor to deal with).
Hauling a big ego up a route adds at least a full grade.
A bunch of ramblings based on a quick perusal of this thread.
-a few people in this thread have implied that sport leading is way radder than toproping, because of the risk factor, or the increased warrior's way headgames involved in the "glory" of a sport lead. I've always found this a pretty lame justification. Sport leading is safe, that's the whole point. 90% of the time, if you are mentally scared on a sport route, yer doin' it rong. Steep routes are a much better argument against sport TR-ing.
-that said, the taboo against toproping has long confused me. John Gill TR'd many of his toughest boulder problems; some of them he went back and soloed, others he didn't. In "Master of Rock," he admits that he doesn't even remember which were TR'd or not. The El Murray trifecta on the (now closed) Mushroom Boulder at Hueco? TR FA's. I think it is rather silly in highball bouldering that a dozen pads count as a send, but for some reason a loose TR does not.
-Tring also allows for much purer movement; I almost always TR pure crack lines, such as at the Creek, after I lead them so that I can get into the flow of movement much better without worrying about placing gear.
-as for whether it "counts" as a send or not, it shouldn't matter. Be honest when you spray about how it went down; that's it.
-a few people in this thread have implied that sport leading is way radder than toproping, because of the risk factor, or the increased warrior's way headgames involved in the "glory" of a sport lead. I've always found this a pretty lame justification. Sport leading is safe, that's the whole point. 90% of the time, if you are mentally scared on a sport route, yer doin' it rong. Steep routes are a much better argument against sport TR-ing.
-that said, the taboo against toproping has long confused me. John Gill TR'd many of his toughest boulder problems; some of them he went back and soloed, others he didn't. In "Master of Rock," he admits that he doesn't even remember which were TR'd or not. The El Murray trifecta on the (now closed) Mushroom Boulder at Hueco? TR FA's. I think it is rather silly in highball bouldering that a dozen pads count as a send, but for some reason a loose TR does not.
-Tring also allows for much purer movement; I almost always TR pure crack lines, such as at the Creek, after I lead them so that I can get into the flow of movement much better without worrying about placing gear.
-as for whether it "counts" as a send or not, it shouldn't matter. Be honest when you spray about how it went down; that's it.
faceholdonacrackclimbDAB!
Oh, and one other thing pertaining to Ray's comment on discrete rope tension during a send. Check out this video of my friend's send of a new route in Bermuda, of all places, for some good examples of rope tension helping a "send."
He freely admitted that there were several places in this that the rope kept his body on the rock. He has since sent it with much more slack in the system, though.
http://www.vimeo.com/10570501
He freely admitted that there were several places in this that the rope kept his body on the rock. He has since sent it with much more slack in the system, though.
http://www.vimeo.com/10570501
faceholdonacrackclimbDAB!