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I'm not saying there is anything wrong with putting the first bolts high up. I just think it's worth making it clear to people that route developers assume that everybody has a stick clip these days. That is a new phenomenon.

Cheapness has alot to do with it.

Andrew wrote:Cheapness has alot to do with it.

thank you andrew.

Andrew wrote:Cheapness has alot to do with it.

True. They keep buying those cheap shoes and wonder why their feet cut all the time. Well that and the poor footwork.

Speaking of poor footwork.... I'm psyched to climb this weekend.

roadside crag is private property correct? i know that stick clips are optional, but there is no use in taking a risk especially at a crag where access could be easily shut down. do it for everyone else's sake if not for your own safety. and as anti said before, not owning a stick clip is no excuse since there are plenty of sticks at the crag. and i for one am glad to know that there are people out there who can and will help others in distress. the response to both of these recent accidents has been encouraging.

The property that Roadside is on is owned by climbers and is officially called "Graining Fork Nature Preserve". They have a website - http://www.gfnp.org/Site/Welcome.html - check it out, know their rules, and follow them!

gripster wrote:not owning a stick clip is no excuse since there are plenty of sticks at the crag.

true! but most people don't know the 'tricks' to clipping with only a stick. it's a shame when you see a bunch of that tape stuff all over the ground when it's completely unnecessary.

there should be a "stick clipping tricks" clinic at the next rocktoberfest... to increase safety, and also to get rid of all that god damn tape all over the ground.

Do you have any kind of data to back that up? There have always been high first bolts, esp. if you climb at the New - and those do have hard moves going to the first bolt, unlike most of the rrg routes.

People, this route was put up in 1992 - that is 17 years ago. How many of you have been climbing that long? How about half that time? 1/4? How many thousands of times has it been done totally safely, with or without a stick clip? Exactly. The route is fine. The people that get hurt are the problem. Period. I am very vocal when I think I route isn't bolted safe, or is bolted poorly. And, this isn't the case at all here.

I used to think John B. was maybe being a bit "rough" when he would simply tell people who didn't like the bolting on a route to just not do it, but more and more, I find myself agreeing.

If you do the math and feel you can boulder to the first bolt safely, then you should. Just understand the risks if you don't make it, and don't blame anyone but your self if you fall.

If you are not sure you can make it, stick clip the bolt. If your stick clip is to short, then you need a new stick clip, not a lower bolt. (big money grip, anyone?)

If you can't work out either of those two options, then either get someone to hang a TR for you, or, and I know this might sound crazy, but, just don't do the route. Go find one that you can get the first safely clipped.

For me, it has nothing to do with cost, low first bolts just suck. For the climber, and esp. for the belayer.

Sometimes I stick the first, sometimes I don't. There are times when I stick the 2nd bolt. There are times when I just boulder up to the 2nd or even 3rd bolt. But, none of those things happen without me pondering the math first.

Personal responsibility is the phrase we all need to learn - and that includes having the proper equipment, including stick clips, as well as accepting that all climbing is a choice. If you choose to climb, then you choose to accept the responsibility when something goes wrong. Nothing in climbing is mandatory, expect that gravity is always in effect.

Shamis wrote:

Wes wrote:

Shamis wrote:I don't know how high the first bolt is on this, but the next edition of the guidebook should probably start warning people that stick clips are no longer optional for sport climbing at the red. I've been on a dozen routes here that have very cruxy moves down low and a first bolt that is 15-20 feet high.

Do all new route developers assume everybody has a stick clip? I know pigsteak does.

WTH? Stick clips are always optional. I usually put the first bolt kinda high on my routes, but also try to make sure there is a good hold to clip it from if you chose not to stick clip. It is not the developers responsibility to make routes idiot proof. It you can't do the math on weather you can safely make it to the first bolt or not, then you deserve your broken ankle, etc. Or just use a stick clip. But, do not blame others for your incompetence.

5-10 years ago most sport routes in the country would not put the first bolt more than about 12 feet up unless the climbing before the first bolt was significantly easier than the grade of the route. This is no longer the case, particularly at the red where there are LOTS of routes with bolts 20 feet up and hard climbing at or near to the grade of the route on the way to that bolt. This requires a stick clip for any sane individual. But people who aren't used to that will assume that the climbing must be easy, why else would they put the first bolt so high?

pigsteak wrote:

Andrew wrote:Cheapness has alot to do with it.

thank you andrew.

that has always been the case ever since porter was using bed frames to make hangers. i remember stories lander would tell me about how they would put first bolts really high to save $ too.

Wes wrote:(...)....and I know this might sound crazy, but, just don't do the route. Go find one that you can get the first safely clipped. ..(..)

good call. just because you have been planning a trip to the red for 4 months, drove 8 hours to get here, are really really bored of the gym, et cetera, doesn't mean that you are entitled to return home safely. people do die here. don't be one of them!