krampus wrote:I agree sax, I climbed for 7 years, regularly outdoors, not much indoor. I knew the ropes for sure, maybe not 10,000 hours but I was completely experienced on belaying and general safety, I could not climb harder than a 10, but had lots of red time. Eventually I quit being lazy and started to train outside the red and within a few months I was climbing easy 12's. every time I decide to bump up my training I get better at climbing rapidly, most of the time though, I am lazy and just enjoy being outside so I fall back down again. I believe I could climb a 13 if I didn't have the mental disability toward consistency. And physically I am a ginger nuf said
it's funny i thought you were awesome back when you were hanging 10's for me to hangdog my way up and falling up 11's. now i know you suck, just not as much as me! nonetheless, I AM EXPERT (in lebowski dude's voice who was there to fix the cable)!
efil lanrete... i enjoy the sound, but in truth i find this seductively backward idea to be quite frightening
rhunt wrote: I would bet that many of the 5.14+ climbers out there can't even place gear or use an atc.
That's like saying a heart surgeon can't do a facelift so they are not an expert doctor. At that level, Gladwell is talking about very narrow fields of expertise. Most classical pianists are not proficient at Jazz, but could learn in time, yet they are still expert pianists.
Good analogy, saxman (although I have personally known many classical pianists who cannot "swing" to save their lives).
I think that what many are missing here is that there are so many sub-fields of what it takes to be a "climber." You are not less of a boulderer if you can't give a soft catch; you are not less of a sport climber if you can't place a stopper; you are not less of a trad climber if you can't jumar and clean a penji pitch.
And, usually the only people who denigrate other climbers' lack of this or that ability are those who are insecure in their own abilities. For every "5.14+ climber out there who can't place gear or belay with a gri gri," there is a 5.14+ climber who probably just "dabbles" in 5.12 trad.
first off, yeah, we gingers are usually scrawny fuckers with Napoleon complexes and fight till the end, so don't mess with us unless you have the mindset to mercilessly beat up a scrawny f-er.
Second, I would call anyone with 10,000 outdoor climbing hours who has not dropped anyone (at least not in the last 5,000 hours) an expert and would take their advice (unless they are all old and scared of everything) I could care less how strong they climb
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared
Saxman wrote:I would say that you are glossing over your training. There is no way you have trained that hard for 15 years and not made it past easy 12s. I don't think 13a is out of reach for anyone who doesn't have a mental or physical disability or who is not at the extremes of the bell curve in body structure. The training you described would have most physically fit people at 12a in 1 year. Even giving them a year for each subsequent grade, that is still 13a in 5 years.
I am representing my training accurately. In fact, people tease me about how regimented I am (e.g., I have done situps every day since I was about 6 years old, I never miss a day of climbing during the week--T and Th) But...I did leave out the part about not being able to fall on lead due to my permanent injury to both ankles (they can't take any impact at all). I have taken only about 20 lead falls in the last 15 years (Only on Mama Benson, Chainsaw, and Gung Ho). So..I am sure I would climb higher grades if I could fall on a route multiple times while working it like normal people do. On the last two 12's I sent, I didn't take a lead fall on either before sending. So, I am probably climbing below my actual ability. Most people who train like I do could probably send mid to hard 12's.
Hauling a big ego up a route adds at least a full grade.
definitely not necessarily. some people can get away with making stupid mistakes without any real consequences for many years, and think they are "experts", when really they are lucky they are not dead!
Hey "woman" you are obviously a gym climber who came outside to climb sport. A lot of the old "crusty" trad climbers began climbing before you were born. Some of us began climbing before there were, what you call cams or quick draws or the word "TAKE". Just because someone can't climb 5.13 doesn't mean anything. I'm no expert but how many are there out there. How many sport climbers could even begin to qualify as expert, none. There is alot more to "climbing" then grade. I think a crusty trad climber with 10,000 hrs of multipitch, alpine, route finding, inovating ropework and dicy placements........ is a lot closer to an expert then an sport climbing crag climber. Just an old crusty traddie's thought.
“Do nothing in haste, look well to each step, and from the beginning think what may be the end.â€
Looks like the majority of people think that 10,000 hours of practice does not make you an expert.
From the responses I gather that calling someone an "expert" is difficult for us.
Most people would agree that Chris Sharma is an expert climber. But people are going to say shit like "yeah he can clip bolts and boulder. But does he know how to climb in the mountains?". In a way those people are right.
I personally think that a jack of all trades is a master of none. To me it seems like if you spent 10,000 hours practicing whatever you are interested in I would have no problem labeling you an expert in that field.
JR wrote:From the responses I gather that calling someone an "expert" is difficult for us.
probably because of our super climber egos, I mean, if I'm not an expert then certainly no one else is either
JR wrote:Most people would agree that Chris Sharma is an expert climber. But people are going to say shit like "yeah he can clip bolts and boulder. But does he know how to climb in the mountains?". In a way those people are right.
I don't know, how often do you think he has to belay? what with is enterage and all
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared
nuf said
nonetheless, I AM EXPERT (in lebowski dude's voice who was there to fix the cable)!
