Yet Another Post about Dogs

Post by **the lurkist** » Tue May 12, 2009 4:39 am

Maine,
Of course you know who you are addressing. A few empathetic people and many more who have crafted their lives around access to climbing and not having extraneous responsibilities that would possibly distract them from climbing.

The degree of self serving is typical. No surprises.

Post by **schwagpad** » Tue May 12, 2009 5:10 am

Damn charlie. Making way too much sense. I hope nobody's steez have been too cramped with this thread, because if you step back this is really entertaining. Nobody's hurt. A pack of dogs apparently had a blast this weekend. And a brighteyed baby had her first true nature experience - getting her head stepped on by a dog. At that age, my guess is getting your head stepped on is the only thing that will separate cragging from xboxing. win win win.

Post by **anticlmber** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:03 am

soooo, if a mountain lion or a bear or some form of "natural" beast had mauled the child, would that be alright?? i'm just wondering if the "nature" part would be ok but the outdoor experience of dogs not ok.

and lurk, just because people have kids it does not change their focus magically. there are plenty of parents out there putting on the illusion of being "good" parents. and many of the people who don't have kids might have made the "right" and "good" parenting" CHOICE not to have kids so that they wouldn't have to inflict a holier than thou, "you wouldn't undrstand because you don't have kids bullshit" on everyone else.

life is a choice and how you live yours is a choice. how you interact with ALL the other people and things in your life is a chance to grow or to not.

you wanna take your kid climbing, GREAT. you want them to be safe, GREAT. you then have to be a PARENT and understand what is going on around you and decide what is safe or not and adjust accordingly. you can always switch crags.

Post by **bcombs** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:14 pm

charlie wrote:Once again everyone takes the topic and wraps it all up in ridiculous assumptions and corrupted logic. Is it a cardinal sin around here to think simply? The only right any of us have is to try and work our way through the world, anything else is bullshit entitlement promised by somebody's paperwork somewhere.

So, lets see if I can explain what I believe this thread is about.........

It's good manners to not curse in front of children, it's good manners to have your dogs under control, it's good manners to not burn down in inappropriate circumstances and it's good manners to try and keep your dog or your child or your logic from fostering buzzkill for those around you. Although that is not the only path, it is the one I hope most of us follow when we're not on the interwebs. I know I'm delusional more often than not.

Although it is your right to not act with manners it is also within your rights to be a better person than those that function without manners.

Charlie, of course you are right (no surprise there

). In reality any one of us would jump to cover a baby and push back an animal that might harm him / her. Or have the "manners" to help out and get the dogs leashed up before someone was hurt.

That being said, I don't want to be lumped in with this proverbial "self serving, children hating, pot smkoing group" that keeps being referred to. I have a child, I work 45-50 hours a week, have a mortgage and two cars, just like a large portion of the folks who frequent the Red to climb.

To be honest this topic infuriates me. Because what people are not seeing is that this topic is not about putting dogs before children. It's about putting climbing before children. Some people need to get fucking real. The need to climb is the actual culprit here. There are hundreds of ways to enjoy nature with your child. And having them stare at some random slice of a cliff in the Red is not one of them. I struggle with this topic mostly because my son is getting close to the age where he will either take hold of this and be into it, or he'll refuse it and I will have to find another hobby that better suits him. If that winds up being the case, so be it.

Don't try to justify this thread, it can't be done. The reality is that the situation was unfortunate, but there is more than one solution.

Post by **steep4me** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:05 pm

I think as long as people are a little bit aware of others' perspectives, everyone could enjoy the cliff. The problem is, all people don't operate by the same norms. There are people who bring kids to the cliff, don't supervise them and one has to listen to them screaming during their redpoint go, deal with them begging for your food or talking incessantly to you. People bring dogs to the cliff and they run on people's ropes, pee/poo everywhere, eat people's food, trample people while playing, dig, stir up dirt etc.

I have a question as a dog owner. My last dog was tied up at all times for the 14 years we took her to the cliff. The problem is, nobody else's dogs are tied up, which causes my dog to bark or whine at them running around instead of just chillin quietly. Our new pup likes other dogs and is quieter if she can play with the other dogs, but this is chaotic and stirs up dirt. I would rather tie her up, but then she'll bark at the dogs who are off leash (which is even more annoying).

I know the first answer---leave the dog at home. But, I come to the Red every weekend and it would cost me $110.00 a weekend to board her, which I can't afford. Plus, why have a dog if you never hang out with it? I leave her home any time my husband does not come up to climb.

So...which option do non-dog people prefer? Tie her up and listen to her whine or bark as other dogs run by, or let her off to race around stirring up dirt?

I want to have good dog-owner manners at the cliff. I am not into that attitude that people just need to be ok with my dog's behavior so she (the dog) can have fun.

Post by **Crankmas** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:31 pm

Fuck dogs Fuck kids shoot em all put them in the dumpster - next case

Post by **charlie** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:36 pm

What kills me about this is I have been annoyed by kids at the cliff perhaps a half dozen times in the many years I've been climbing. On the other hand I consider it pretty much inevitable to be annoyed by dogs any time I go to the Red. Are kids such a problem for everyone else?

bcombs, you are absolutely on point. I should also have said I believe it's bad manners to comment on anyone's parenting skills as well, especially since I know even less about that than I do anything else. Scream at the kid when they eff up or make them say please I consider my responsibility as an adult, but I won't harass you for not doing it. Life is really just about setting examples, and hoping your example will raise the average.

I try as hard as I can to not pass judgment on people, and if I do it's more than likely hidden in the voices in my head. In reading this thread it's apparent that kind of thinking isn't the most popular, but I guess some people are much smarter than me.

steep4me, you have no control over any other dog owners and they have their own reasons for letting them run amok. I'd prefer you set the example that a leashed dog (whining or not) is much better than a dogger stampede.

Post by **pigsteak** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:51 pm

steep, we bring our electric shock collar for the dog. once it is on, problem solved. he knows what it does, so he doesn't even try to bark.

Post by **Saxman** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:51 pm

Easy solution. Put a sign at the trailhead(s) of the crag you are climbing at that reads, "We hate unleashed dogs so we have hidden doggie treats laced with strychnine around the crag which won't be removed until we leave. Have a responsible dog owner nice day.

Post by **Lander** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:55 pm

I just got back from the red last night, saw this thread this morning.

I was at the drive-by sunday and saw the whole thing. I had my dog there unleashed but she wasn't one of the trouble makers. She's old now and chilled out and causes no problems for anybody. When she was younger, though, she had to be tied up a lot more because she would stir up shit (running, kicking up dust, etc).

I agree completely that people should control their unruly dogs or leave them home but Maine, I have to say, if you're going to bring your 6 mo old to the crag you should a) bring along a third person to help watch the kid and b) invest in one of those fold-up cribs where they'll be safe from marauding, out of control dogs or bigger kids. (Plus when they're toddler age they can't crawl away.)

I'm surprised lurkist didn't mention these things because he and Diane have been using these tactics for years successfully for years without problems. They just don't climb without a third person to help out. I was the part time baby sitter several times. It's not so bad, I still got to climb all I wanted. And it freed them up to climb/belay without worry. Seriously, a little more proactive approach on your part is whats needed most because, unfortunately, unleashed crazy dogs are just one more objective hazard at the cliffs. Just trying to help.