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wow. it's like arguing with my girlfriend. she takes details from the context of a dispute and highlights them. not really addressing the issue, just addressing a comment. this is pretty funny to me all of this. i understand both sides. i never said climbing harder made anybody right or any more of a local. i validate your opinion, but i don't agree with it on the whole. this "friendly" banter is entertaining though. LOL

semantics are so versatile and fun, aren't they?

and just to add some more fuel: since joe thinks hiphop and climbing are so integrally a part of each other and you seem to wear the crown according to him, do you have some special validation now? it's cute, really.

Andrew wrote: Not to support Adam's actions, but what would you do if someone stole your draws seven times.

That would piss me off. Rumor is it was for photos. How self indulgent is that? Come on, put the draws back if you take them off!

I have a feeling that if some of the old time red climbers had their draws/cams stolen 7 times they would have done a lot more than hammer some hangers into the wall. No that I think of it... it would probably still involve a hammer.

No doubt that stealing draws is hella bad, but the consequences of that should have landed on the person taking them, not the hangers of the route.

Whoever took the draws needs to give them back, plus interest, apologies, etc.

The hangers need to be fixed, apologies issued, and maybe a little communtiy service thrown in as well.

finally a little voice of reason has chimed in. wes, andrew, and scin have said simply what i can agree with.

Once again Wes provides the voice of reason, but this is the internet, so get it the hell out of here.

This is awesome. I'm in Spain, it's pissing rain, I'm bored so I open up the computer to find my inbox flooded with emails! Something to do! Something to think about! Yes!

I don't condone Joe stealing draws (shame, shame) but honestly I think I should have pulled the left bolts last year. I didn't since I was trying to be diplomatic but honestly this is sport climbing.

To be fair to Adam he did email me and I feel no disrespect for his actions, I do not feel they were directed towards me and that's fine. I don't agree with his actions and find the whole debate silly.

My feelings on 50 words are quite clear, downgrade the route to 14a and climb the right variation. The problem with downgrading 50 words is you'd have to downgrade every route in the Red, something that it seems people don't like when I suggest it. So maybe 14b? The reason why I feel the left and right variations lead to the same route is that you can clip the line of bolts from the right variation. Continuing to climb the left variation is like skipping obvious rests or big holds on a route just to make it harder, silly. I understand why you would want the challenge but this is sport climbing, a silly endeavour in and of itself. Personally I'd move on, try Lucifer, the chocolate factory project or bolt some new lines. There's tons left.

Why did I not downgrade the route? Don't get me started on grades in general. It's a guideline and I tend to take Ray's approach. To paraphrase: If a grade is only one letter grade off from opinion then don't change it. If it's two letter grades off then change it two letter grades. Otherwise we'll spend all day debating grades. Climbing a '14c' does not affect my life in any way. I've climbed 5.12 routes that provided me with more satisfaction than '50 words' and probably the hardest climb I have personally ever done was rated 13d so I try not to focus on grades to much but on whether a climb is good or not. I don't get money from sponsors, I don't even get recognition for climbs. My role in the climbing community is merely an ambassador. I climb for fun and in my spare time, I just happen to do it a lot. So personally I couldn't give a rats ass if it gets downgraded or upgraded or whatever. Besides, it's now off my one year score for 8a . I have contributed time and money into the red river gorge and love the area and the people.

I'm not trying to take away from Mickael's ascent, I think his send of the left variation was awesome - bold and inspiring. But once Dani and Chris found the right variation to me that just makes more sense. Unless you are going to move the bolts farther left the two variations are silly, the easiest way up is the right variation, and the bolts to the right made the climb more enjoyable. And honestly at the end of the day that's what it is all about.

Sorry the drama of climbing has come to a front for all of you and at the Red. Hope things are awesome there and you have a great fall!

Now I have to try and concentrate on sunshine and happy thoughts and if you guys want something to laugh about you can laugh at the fact that I'm suffering in Spain and wish I was there to have this debate in person... darn rain.

Mike

so Mike, let's draw you in a bit more

are you suggesting we reinstall the right bolts, and chop the left ones? mr. taylor, you cool with that? would you like the honors?

and to re-engage the start of this thread. pulling the draws was super lame. and stealing if they weren't returned promptly.

I told Adam I'd apologize on here if I felt his actions were warranted. I don't..yet. Like Wes said, stealing draws involves just those two folks. Bashing hangers, and leaving an eyesore, affects the entire community.

Yes I think the right bolts should be re-installed and the left bolts removed. Heck even Hugh says if he had seen the holds out right he probably would've put the bolts out there in the first place.

Just like I think the fourth draw on Thanatopsis can be moved to the left. I think bolts should get moved more to help with rope drag, working moves, supporting new sequences etc... as time goes on.

Ok. That's it. I'm out.

Yes... stealing draws is definitely bad form. They should have been rehung the same day they were removed.

Easymoney, as far as your attempt at personally attacking me, you should try harder, and please, do it like an adult. Playground taunts stopped bothering me when I was 6.

I agree with Mike on the removal of the left bolts.

What would I have done if someone was stealing my draws? I'd have gone up, put draws back on with quicklinks on the bolt end, and tightened them down with JB Weld in the threads. Easier to leave 2 perma draws than to lose 7 draws...

OR...

If I were really offended by the neighboring bolts, I'd have removed the hangars, maybe chopped the bolts, and filled the holes, though I can't imagine being offended long enough to go through with that.

Now there are gonna be more holes in the same 8 square feet of rock. Retarded.