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When you're redpointing a hard trad line you have the gear dialed and it goes in just about as quick as hanging a draw. You may be pressing your shoulder against one wall and your toe smearing on the other but if you have the gear dialed it'll go right in. Some even resort to tricks on their hardest redpoints like velcroing the gear to their harness to be able to rip it off and place it quicker. Beth Rodden did something like that on Meltdown.

I'm at Starbucks and there is a guy walking toward me wearing plaid shorts and a pink oxford with boat shoes on. His shirt is tucked in. Wow.

Okay, anyway.......
Gear is a bitch to deal with sometimes. Not all the time though. I don't think you should include the gear factor in the rating of a climb though because it varies too much from person to person. Some people feel the need to place every 2 feet so of course a 5.9 will feel really tough for them.

Try toproping your favorite trad climb and see how hard it feels. I bet it will feel comparable to a sport line of the same grade. Maybe not though. Trad feels harder to me than sport but only because I don't feel comfortable smearing my feet or lying back a crack so I grip too hard. I can't make a global statement about the ratings just because of what I feel because someone else with great friction technique will say I'm crazy. I think a couple of extra points for trad lines is enough to justify the pain in the ass trad can be.

I also don't think you can add the "scare" factor in for the same reasons SCIN stated about gear. Its too subjective. The Bachar-Yerian is a walk in the park for some people....

and a nightmare for others (most).

And the only time I feel gear should be a part of the grading equation is when it is actually hard to place (for example: Crankenstein 10b... the climbing is about 5.9. The gear can only be placed blindly, or from the worst stances.).

Most gumbies will try to place gear from all the bad stances. That only makes the route harder for you... not harder than the grade.

SCIN wrote:.....I'm at Starbucks and there is a guy walking toward me wearing plaid shorts and a pink oxford with boat shoes on. His shirt is tucked in. Wow.

Okay, anyway.....

For all the stupid posts I read on this board there are occasionally moments of clear geniush. That's probably the main reason I can never quit this place.

scin/ow/day

Thanks for your time, the advice and the rationale; I'm all in.

Mentally, not fashionably...

Given that most redpoints are dialed, a 5.x is a 5.x

Onsite is where it's at and my scale is whack but you will never have that again.

so have we come to a conclusion ladies? trad is not REAL climbing to start with, so don't sweat it. If you don't like the point system (or if you do like the point system) then you have forgotten why climbing is cool. because it is you against the obstacle in front of you.

push your limits, or don't push your limits. but go home psyched, and swearing to come again another day.

(crap, all that nonsense I just wrote makes me sound ghey like anti climber)

climb 5.12, or go buy a mtn bike, where spandex is still,(cough cough) cool....or not.

Did you like Spiderpig?

pigsteak wrote:so have we come to a conclusion ladies?

Conclusion...

There is a difference.

Resolution...

Make up the difference.


Thanks for your time again Mr. Steak.