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Pigsteak, I appreciate you putting bolts and hangers up, and as I recall, they are still right where you left them.

Pig, start drilling holes and using remove-able bolts. That is the cleanest style of sport climbing, right? Me and my CREW are going to start pulling every bolt in the red, and leaving the holes. If you dare put a bolt in one of the hole we will clean it. Wee will be starting at the zoo and working in reverse alphabetical order, and yes Rick we will be in your valley!

Ha ha ha!

vertical1 wrote:Pigsteak, I appreciate you putting bolts and hangers up, and as I recall, they are still right where you left them.

you are correct. but I just think any money spent in the Red (donations, permas, bolts, etc) should all be seen as a sunk cost of doing business. if you never see a return, you should know that ahead of time. If Pd's get stolen, if bolts get yanked, for the most part it wasn't my land being invaded in the first place.....

and trust me, I am for sure not moaning about $6,486.92 I have spent putting up routes (not counting gas, drill batteries, bits, chainn,etc). heck, I do not even keep track of the cost no one makes me do it, and I am free to move on at any time.

and as soon as I even smell a whiff of self-righteousness in these causes, I turn and pay homage to Dr. Bob. That'll give ya some perspective for sure.

i'd especially like it if you strip 40 ounces so that i can hear about gitta whipping someones ass

This went unnoticed. I laughed. If this happens, please send me an email prior to the stripping so I can drive up.

hey hey

I think everyone agrees that the permadraws are not the biggest issue at the cliffs. The center of the problem is climber behavior.

The RRGCC recognizes that that not enough has been done in the area climber education, we will renew our efforts in this regard. RRGCC will take more action to communicate ethics and respect for the area, land, climbs and other climbers. Matt's video at rocktoberfest was an effort that direction.

At our meeting last Sunday there was agreement to make progress in the area of education. We will seek support from other land owners, of course there are a ton of details to work out, but we have a direction which is: development of consistent communication (small handheld somethings, etc. See Josephine’s post. <This is something that the RRGCC will do regardless of the outcome of the current permadraw discussion>

The RRGCC believes one way to reduce over crowding is to gain access to more climbing areas. Next year the PMRP purchase will be complete. As a community we can use the momentum gained to buy another great climbing area.

The biggest hurdle to that goal is: Where is this new climbing area? . . . . . . That depends on you.

Get involved, go find available property / cliff line, determine the potential (is it the next mother lode? or the just 1~2 marginal lines?) check at the PVA’s office, talk to the owners, discuss your findings with the rrgcc then let’s make some offers. Contact any board member with information and let’s get the ball rolling. The RRGCC cannot do it without an involved community of climbers sharing the same vision. When we own it no one can close it.

Below are my personal (not RRGCC's) opinions regarding the permadraw issue.

The hardware
1. The change to steel carabiners a couple of years ago was a natural response to the issue of quickly worn sharp aluminum biners.
2. The progression of a steel perma-draw is a small step from steel carabiners. These two actions were done by community action. However there were some unexpected consequences.
3. There is a difference between project draws and perma draws. This difference is not the material of the biner or the dog bone the difference is the quick-link. Permadraws have a quicklink, project draws have a biner on the bolt.
4. Once a draw becomes a permadraw (with a quick link) it ceases to be private property. It is now "community property" without an owner.
5. Things without owners are not well taken care of, not loved, and often taken advantage of.

Human side
1. Attempting climbs that are slightly harder than current abilities is how most climbers achieve more strength and skill, regardless of how the draws get up there.
2. A completely prehung cliff is very inviting to climbers and will reduce the barrier to entry allowing attempts of grades which may significantly over their head.
3. Maintenance of “no draw left hanging” concept will require a lot of effort on regular basis (especially if extended to the all the cliffs at the rrg).
4. Without clearly communicated guidelines and expectations discourse and frustrations on all sides will rule the day
5. If those guideline simple, reasonable and clear communicated, most climbers will attempt to meet those expectations.
6. The climbing at the RRG is incredibly good. The number of climbers visiting the area will not go down.

Community side
1. It is difficult to make the one decision that is best for everyone. A one size fits all solution may not exist, so some compromise should be expected.
2. As a community we grow and change. Sometimes decisions are made without understanding the implications. We should learn from our past decisions and try to improve with future actions.
3. The actions of a few of our friends (installation of steel carabiners,hooks, permadraws and removal of the same) impact many of our friends, visitors and the community. These impacts are often unknown at the time of the doing. Good intentions sometimes go bad. Bad intentions sometime go good.
4. Frustrations are a response to several truths (poor ethics, bad decisions, overcrowding, safety issues, dogs, poo, etc)
6. There is no instruction book to guide our actions however solutions need to be positive, simple, easily communicated and maintainable.

Possible solution
1. Let’s greatly reduce or eliminate the concept of “community draws”. Few are really necessary (even for cleaning) and only a few climbers will take care of them anyway.
2. Realize climbers will continue to put up project draws.
3. Consider the removal all the permadraws (i.e everything that utilizes screw links) however show reasonable tolerance of project draws. Project draws may have a steel carabiner, the dog bones may be cables. However project draws are easily recognized by the the carabiner on the bolt side.
4. Encourage the timely removal of the project draws by the owner. Removal will allow the owner to inspect and replace the sharps.
5. Reasonable tolerance means - Once a year or season, in an organized way, remove all project draws from all climbing areas (with permission of the land owner if needed). Advertise the sh@t out of this event so no one is caught off guard. However, do not return the draws that are recovered. Not returning the gear should encourage #4.

Let’s find a solution, something maintainable, something that we can all get behind and make the positive impact that the RRG needs at this moment and will continue into the future. In the end, we are all in it together, pushing our limits, having fun, and trying real hard to not "f*ck it up".

smile
rick

I really like this, esp 4 and 5!

Rick wrote: Possible solution
1. Let’s greatly reduce or eliminate the concept of “community draws”. Few are really necessary (even for cleaning) and only a few climbers will take care of them anyway.
2. Realize climbers will continue to put up project draws.
3. Consider the removal all the permadraws (i.e everything that utilizes screw links) however show reasonable tolerance of project draws. Project draws may have a steel carabiner, the dog bones may be cables. However project draws are easily recognized by the the carabiner on the bolt side.
4. Encourage the timely removal of the project draws by the owner. Removal will allow the owner to inspect and replace the sharps.
5. Reasonable tolerance means - Once a year or season, in an organized way, remove all project draws from all climbing areas (with permission of the land owner if needed). Advertise the sh@t out of this event so no one is caught off guard. However, do not return the draws that are recovered. Not returning the gear should encourage #4.

I was thinking, if there are those community-purchased/fund-raised/donated climb-tech draws that are basicly almost new, stripped off the Motherlode wall, and currently not being used and unlikely to be used again at the Lode, how about giving them all to Webers?
The perma-draws in Muir Valley have been installed with Rick's active involvement in the decision process, no one is talking about stripping them, as far as I understand, and those draws will need eventual maintenance/replacement, so here would be a cache of draws for replacement. A drop in a bucket for total Muir Valley expenses, money-wise, but still... what are the drawbacks to this?

Why don't you guys just instill a program such as the one in Hueco? The PMRP is self guided, with only x-amount of climbers allowed (by reservation only)...and the rest of the areas are only open for guided tours...crowds = solved, behavior = restricted, freedom = done. It seems to be headed in this direction with so many areas closing down for good.

Rick wrote:3. There is a difference between project draws and perma draws. This difference is not the material of the biner or the dog bone the difference is the quick-link. Permadraws have a quicklink, project draws have a biner on the bolt.
4. Once a draw becomes a permadraw (with a quick link) it ceases to be private property. It is now "community property" without an owner.

This is not necessarily the case. Project draws can definitrly have a quick-link on the bolt.

Thanks for your well thought and well organized post.

Rick has posted a nice post addressing the issue. He shares Pigsteak's idea of only using steel project draws and doing away with all other community draws. His line of thinking was also in line with my idea of a bi-annual removal of mank gear. I would propose that this event of removing the gear occur at the end of fall and spring season and be in honor of Ben and Laura. We could call it something like "Spank the Mank". IMHO, this seems like a reasonable compromise to the situation.

Combining these two concepts will provide accountability and ownership for project/fixed gear and provide a method for education and community driven removal.

I would propose that the first event occur this Thanksgiving, with the stripping of all community hardware at that time. Then this hardware be used for anchors and possibly a cleaning biners.

Can we start building support for this... do enough people think that it is a reasonable compromise and workable?

Thanks for the post, Rick. Good to have talking points.

It seems that it might be worthwhile to decouple the two main issues being discussed in this thread. Permadraws are an issue. The management of increased impact due to increased use is an issue. They both need to be addressed, but it may be easier to tackle them separately (I don't think many of us currently think they are all that strongly correlated.)

The permadraws are going to be the easier of the two to work out. Should we start a new thread to earnestly discuss ways of managing the increase in use or refocus the attention of this thread on the source of the feelings of frustration and powerlessness that led to the removal of the permadraws in the first place?

Ryan