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Don't equate trad climbing with people being smarter about safety. Just go to Fortress on a busy day to see all sorts of gumby mistakes and scary stuff.

Good point, I'm referring to getting away from all the busier crags. My b. Some of my first trad leads didnt have any good gear and were pretty much somewhere along the lines of watching me try not to cry, and try not to die.. Generally speaking a gumby wouldn't walk up to B3 or the Quest and go, "eh Ill give it a go." But, I've heard guys that couldn't hang draws on the slabs at roadside spay about wanting to go work Jesus wept and Cell Block. Anyway, Not trying to spark a debate about sport vs trad here. I'm also not trying to elevate one over the other. They are both cool and lots of fun.

So, your "cage rattling" was just lucky in that your fall was at the anchor yet they are "unsafe gumbies" because they fell lower on the route? That doesn't hold any water, falling is falling.

Now, being unsafe by trying to lead something way over your ability and putting yourself and your belayer at risk? Maybe, maybe not. I think that is the discussion we really need to be having. People coming to terms with their actual ability and trying to somewhat stay within it.

Ditto on the Fortress Wall thing, and likely even worse. Why? Because the only thing scarier than a person falling at the second or third bolt is a person falling on a crappily placed piece of gear that will almost certainly pull.

bcombs and andrew, Im in agreement with you both here. You are right falling is falling. thank god for good pro right? I want to get better just like everyone else. Im just reflecting on how scary it can be too. I just hate that for some people the learning curve has to involve an accident to get their cage rattled. I'm really lucky mine didn't. Most of us can say the same. Its super scary to see people deck. An experience luckily I haven't had much, with the exception of this weekend and a couple other memorable moments in my few years of climbing experience. It scares me that I saw almost as many decks in one day as Ive seen in all the years Ive climbed..

Yep not only is "decking" happening more, it's also become more accepted. I would say most climbers with less than 3 years experience think "decking" is a normal and expected part of climbing.

I am glad this thread is still going. It reassures me that there are still people who know the difference between right and wrong. And it reminds me why I would rather climb old dirty trad routes at some neglected old school cliff or at the new super secrete crags than climb at one of the over crowded/over-gumbied cliffs at the Red.

I use to think the old-school crowd that was against the development of sport climbs under 5.10+ at the Red were a bunch of crusty old elitist but now I see what they were afraid of.

Yet the last three climbing deaths at the red were on a 5.13b sport climb and a 5.11 trad climb. Sorry Rob, but I am not sure I buy that.

Yeah but what about the last 25 accidents? besides this thread is about idiots.

rhunt wrote:Yeah but what about the last 25 accidents? besides this thread is about idiots.

I think at some point the luck is going to run out.

I blame bouldering... Yep, climbing without a rope and decking every time if you don't top out. And all your friends telling you to slap that hold, you can do it, while half-heartedly spotting you.

Of course, I'm just kidding...

Up at the gunks a few weeks ago, an older couple was walking along the carriage road when they happened upon some boulderers. They stopped and watched them for a bit and then asked "Are you boys practicing to be able to do what they're doing?" as she pointed to some climbers.