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I've never fallen on so many lower grade routes than I did in Wild Iris. The lines are very sequential, hard to read, and chalk can't be seen on any of the holds. I felt like I was starting to climb all over again.

I don't think grades at the red are soft at all (except for certain parts of muir). I think the reason why people might tend to 'onsight' better at the red is because the climbs here are mostly endurance. If you have a lot of endurance, you can probably figure out the moves. If you don't have a lot of endurance, you're screwed. One of the reasons for this is that the rock here is so featured, and often very pocketed, that there are often times an abundance of holds to use, so you don't have to find that 1 sequence that works.

I think a lot of other area's (and as SCIN says, different types of rock) can be technically harder so that the moves are harder to get right the first time, but may take much less endurance and raw power than the red.

Shamis wrote:I don't think grades at the red are soft at all (except for certain parts of muir). I think the reason why people might tend to 'onsight' better at the red is because the climbs here are mostly endurance. If you have a lot of endurance, you can probably figure out the moves. If you don't have a lot of endurance, you're screwed. One of the reasons for this is that the rock here is so featured, and often very pocketed, that there are often times an abundance of holds to use, so you don't have to find that 1 sequence that works.

I think a lot of other area's (and as SCIN says, different types of rock) can be technically harder so that the moves are harder to get right the first time, but may take much less endurance and raw power than the red.

I concur

My two cents... The Red's limestone also contributes to a good mental state during an OS. All of my hardest OS's have been away from my "home crag" on Ontario limestone. Many of the routes here are polished, have cryptic sequences, holds are normally crimps instead of jugs, and the rock isn't what I would call bomber.

At the Red, the rock is generally solid, the falls are clean, the sequences are easier to read (chalked holds, plenty of features for feet and hands), and the routes are just more aesthetic.

All of these factors are in my head as I'm trying my OS.

the red's limestone contributes to roadcuts. not climbing.

I have climbed off an on at the Red for over 6 years and still haven't onsighted any limestone routes

Just under a number grade betweeen mine. I haven't tried to onsight much harder than 12b, because I figure I will need a few goes anyway. The focus is usually to redpoint a route for me.

I don't have a lot of climbing experience outside the red, but I think the comments about the rock type, chalk, and style of climbing here sounds logical.

I've always considered routes at the red to be easier to Red Point - not that the climbing is easier/harder, but the nature of the rock leads to a higher RP limit. At the New River Gorge, there are crux moves that I simply just can't do - unless I get a lot stronger, but at the red, stuff tends to be pumpy, so if you project something, you can get it wired enough to have enough guns to do the crux (often a crux on a 13 is V4/V5 or easier)

Does that make sense?

For example, Relinquary - got my butt kicked hard the first few goes, but then I figured out the most efficient sequence and just sprinted it to the chains (and got teh knee bar thanks to Meadows)

JR wrote:I have heard that a well rounded climber will have a full grade between your best onsight versus highest redpoint.

It depends on your definition of "well rounded" but to me a bigger difference would seem less well rounded. To make the difference large you either need to project a lot or really suck at onsighting. Either way I wouldn't consider it well rounded. Also the single hardest routes are less useful measures than what you can consistently onsight or redpoint.

if you throw yourself at one thing obsessivley enough, you'll do it. - anon