RRC Archives

Larry, the difference between what Alan linked to and the tables of crap at the gun show is that what Alan linked to is saying that we're moving towards fascism, while the gun show nuts claim that the secret cabals are currently in control. Don't try to exaggerate what's being said. The point here is that the Bush administration is a 3 or 4 on a scale where real fascist regimes are a 9 or 10. The 'real' USA is a negative something on that scale.

I think that two things are true about this: 1) The Bush administration is not currently, actually fascist AND 2) they have taken several critical steps closer to fascism. Their moves to limit democracy, marginalize and limit 'the press', reliance on 'traditional values', reliance on the military, reliance on fear of internal and external 'enemies' and so on are all steps away from core American values and towards a fascist state.

fascism -a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

"a dictator having complete power" - Looks to me that Bush must be the weakest dictator in history.

"forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism" - The (internal) opposition and criticism that he's faced at every turn has been met with exactly no force.

"regimenting all industry, commerce, etc. - Now that's a laugh.

"emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism - He's no racist, pretty nationalistic but not enough so as to actually enforce a national border.

Looks to me like Bush is a piss poor fascist at best. Go ahead, hate him all you want. Just don't claim he's Bushitler. That just doesn't match up with the facts.

And again you show your similarity to a toaster in the art of debate. "Moving Towards" and "acting in a fascistic manner" is not the same as 1943 Germany. This administration behaves in a manner unlike any previous administration and, when you take this list of 14 characteristics of fascist regimes and make the comparisons, the Bush administration is the most fascist of them all. Hitler began as a democratically elected leader, too (though I still say Bush never fairly won an election to national office).

This is the core problem with arguing with true right wingers (especially of the variety that get all their info from Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, et. al.): they only see black or white. Their minds are so inflexible they can't see anything in the middle, anything that agrees partially with what they believe and also disagrees, completely unable to connect these disparate points of view therefore denying them on principle. Because Bush's administration uses the tactics of the Nazi regime but doesn't gas Jews, there are no parallels between the Bush admistration and Hitler's in the mind of the willfully ignorant right.

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If God is on your side, then there can clearly be no middle ground. When will you ever learn Alan.

Alan, You've been off your meds again, haven't you?

L Day wrote:Alan, You've been off your meds again, haven't you?

At least he has meds to take. What's your excuse?

Alan Evil wrote:And again you show your similarity to a toaster in the art of debate. "Moving Towards" and "acting in a fascistic manner" is not the same as 1943 Germany. This administration behaves in a manner unlike any previous administration and, when you take this list of 14 characteristics of fascist regimes and make the comparisons, the Bush administration is the most fascist of them all. Hitler began as a democratically elected leader, too (though I still say Bush never fairly won an election to national office).

This is the core problem with arguing with true right wingers (especially of the variety that get all their info from Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, et. al.): they only see black or white. Their minds are so inflexible they can't see anything in the middle, anything that agrees partially with what they believe and also disagrees, completely unable to connect these disparate points of view therefore denying them on principle. Because Bush's administration uses the tactics of the Nazi regime but doesn't gas Jews, there are no parallels between the Bush admistration and Hitler's in the mind of the willfully ignorant right.

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I find it pretty difficult to give any credence to the Rush Limbaughs and the Sean Hannitys, etc. Even the liberal commentators have an agenda and that is to get people to listen to them. They're IMO blatant self-promoters who are not really that zealous about anything but ratings. That said, I am worried about people who are influenced by these nutjobs. Sean Hannity is basically a used car salesman, that's on tv. I don't think facsism or an ism can take hold in the U.S., but that's probably what Italy thought at the time as well.

Again, the point here is not that Bush has achieved a fascist dictatorship. Rather the point is that he is moving away from the American way and in the direction of fascism. Your quotes serve well to make Alan's point:

L Day wrote:fascism -a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

The above quote rolls everything below together:

"a dictator having complete power" - Looks to me that Bush must be the weakest dictator in history.

Where to start? The theory of the Unitary Executive? Presidential signing statements? Law enforcement/national security spying on citizens with little or no Judicial oversight? And on and on. Bush has clearly moved to illegally, unconstitutionally take a great deal of power for the President. The administration has a clear disdain for the limits on power exerted by vibrant participatory democracy and the critical limits on executive power in the process of "checks and balances".

"forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism" - The (internal) opposition and criticism that he's faced at every turn has been met with exactly no force.

Remember when the White House told people that they had better "watch what you say."? See my point below, but the relationship between the political right and business has clearly been used to suppress dissent. (Actually there have been moves to use violence to suppress dissent by removing the criminal penalties on people who attack others who are burning certain pieces of fabric.) Rather than using mobs of angry rednecks to suppress speech, the military-industrial complex has used advertising dollars to push commercial media to parrot the White House and avoid factual analysis or the voices of knowledgeable dissenters. Case in point: WMDs in Iraq. Plenty of people in your imaginary "liberal media" knew that the White House story was full of holes, that the 'sources' were lying out of self-interest, that the UN inspectors clearly found nothing but because of pressure from corporate advertisers they just printed what the administration told them and pushed the facts out of the story.

"regimenting all industry, commerce, etc. - Now that's a laugh.

Rather than a command economy where the government orders businesses to do things, the Bush approach is a type of crony-oriented semi-fascism. Cases in point: the revolving door between industry/lobbying and positions as government regulators, the Enron-type situation where the corporation sponsors the candidate and is rewarded with weak government oversight or regulation, and cases like the no-bid contracts that have run the war in Iraq (not to mention the shift of vital services from government agencies to being provided by private contractors)

"emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism - He's no racist, pretty nationalistic but not enough so as to actually enforce a national border.

No rascism? Have you talked with many Arab-Americans (or Indian-Americans (from India, not Native Americans) who are mistaken for Arabs)? Clearly, a major part of the so-called "War on Terrorism" is in fact a war on ethnic Arabs based on race and clearly has holy war undertones as a war of a "Christian nation" against the "false religion" of Islam. The "war on terror" is both based on this ignorant bigotry and is key to the Bush administration's attempt to hold power (see below) when they came into office with a total lack of democratic legitimacy. There is no war on a military tactic, but there is a war of "Christian America" versus Arab Muslims. This is exactly the blend of nationalism and racism/secular conflict that has been the basis of many full and partial fascist regimes.

Looks to me like Bush is a piss poor fascist at best. Go ahead, hate him all you want. Just don't claim he's Bushitler. That just doesn't match up with the facts.

Is Bush as incompetent as a wanna-be fascist as he is at everything else? Yes. Is he a full-fledged fascist dictator? No. Do the facts show that he has moved away from the Constitution and taken steps towards fascism? Yes.

tomdarch, well-said.