RRC Archives

well put Andrew, sooner or later it comes time to pay the fiddler and the current crop of neocons have throw fiscal conservative and less govt concepts out the window, lets get em and drag em behind a pick-up truck and call it an abortion based on our choice

O.K. Andrew - I'll try to answer you point by point.

1) I never said, nor I do I believe that being 8 trillion dollars in debt is a good thing, or that it does anything to improve our national security. Problem is war in the manner this country fights it is expensive. We could spend more lives, and fewer dollars I suppose, but surely that would be seen as unwise by most everyone.

2) Faulty intelligence was in no way a good thing. Why don't you dig up something from a credible critic that shows it was faked.

3) There was a great deal of agreement in the western world that Saddam was pursuing the development of weapons of mass destruction. I'm quite sure that these countries had their own intelligence agencies and didn't just call up the CIA to see how they should think. There were a few countries not in agreement. This will not be the last time the majority was wrong.

4) There was a laundry list of reasons why Bush felt the U.S. had to remove Saddam from power. Some of these reasons were stressed more than others. Bush never said Saddam was responsible for 9/11, ever. If you think he did, dig up the quote.

I think you completely misunderstand my position on this whole thing. I'm simply saying that right or wrong, the leadership of this country lead us into a war in Iraq. Bush of course bears the greatest responsibility, but the majority of Democrats were right there with him. Now the Dems want to cut and run and cover their asses by saying "Bush Lied". Bull shit! The intel might have been wrong, but it wasn't based on lies. See if you can find a summary of the National Intelligence Estimate. That would be revealing I think.

Lastly, I've read the writings of too many military people currently serving in Iraq, who believe in their mission, and who believe that we can win, to think that it would be wise to leave the country to the Islamists now, whether we were right or wrong to take on Iraq in the first place.

Well-spoken, Day. Thank you for taking the time for it. It is stunning to see how so many are compelled to regurgitate those mindless libbie cliches. If they had to do any realistic thinking, they'd be hard-pressed to master the major bodily functions.

I have no problem at all imagining what would happen if we abandoned Iraq now. Do they? My guess is yes, and they simply don't care. They don't seem overly concerned about the 200,000 people that Saddam murdered over his career. Near as I can tell, they think he ought to still be in power.

ZSpiddy

Argue all you want but the fact is, Iraq is headed for a long bloody civil war and nothing is going to stop it.

Ynot - I'd say the odds are you're right. At this point I still think that if there's even a chance that we can stop that from happening, we must try. I think we'll know in just a few months if General Petraeus' approach will succeed or not.

From Wikipedia -

"Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi is one of Usama bin Laden’s top global deputies, personally chosen by bin Laden to monitor al Qaeda operations in Iraq. Al-Hadi was the former Internal Operations Chief for al Qaeda. He has been associated with numerous attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan and has been known to facilitate communication between al Qaeda in Iraq and al Qaeda. Al-Hadi rose to the rank of Major in Saddam Hussein’s army before moving to Afghanistan to fight against the Soviet Union. He has a reputation for being a skilled, intelligent, and experienced commander and is an extremely well-respected al Qaeda leader. He has commanded numerous terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. Al-Hadi is reportedly still in contact with Usama bin Laden."

The Pentagon announced today that Abd Al-Hadi al-Iraqi is currently enjoying our hospitality at Guantanamo Bay. Although the Pentagon did not say how long he's been there, the Brits say he was captured late last year. The Saudis reported today that they had just captured something like 170 al Qaeda operatives. I'm pretty sure that Al-Hadi's glad he's not in the hands of the Saudis.

It is often said that we are caught up in a game of Wack-a-mole. That there's no end to these guys. Personally, I don't believe that bin Laden can just shit another leader of Al-Hadi's caliber anytime he feels like it. The greater war against the Islamists may well go on for a hundred years or longer. If the civilized world would get it's act together it wouldn't have to last that long.

More information is coming out about Al-Hadi. He was apprehended while trying to enter Iraq fron Iran, and is thought to have devised the plan for the July 7th bombings in London. Hmm, a former Major in Saddam's army, working for Al Qaeda since long before the invasion of Iraq, most recently harboring in Iran. But of course there was no connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, or Iran and Al Qaeda, either. Everybody knows that.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 717571.ece

L K Day wrote:

Hmm, a former Major in Saddam's army, working for Al Qaeda since long before the invasion of Iraq, most recently harboring in Iran. But of course there was no connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, or Iran and Al Qaeda, either. Everybody knows that.

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Obviously part of the great lie that Bush has contrived so that he can waste lives around the world.

There is a religious war going on now. Attempts to bury one's head in the sand and deny it is not going to make it go away. And neither will kissing enemy ass.

ZSpiddy

http://tinyurl.com/2ayskf a long recounting of the politicization of the intelligence. A long read but worth it.
regarding the NIE:

(8:00pm) October 1, 2002

The CIA delivers the classified version of its 90-page National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq (see October 1, 2002 ) to Congress. It is available for viewing by Congresspersons under tight security in the offices of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees. [ Washington Post, 6/22/2003 ;Vanity Fair, 5/2004, pp. 281 ] But no more than a half-dozen or so members actually come to review the NIE, despite the urgings of Peter Zimmerman, the scientific advisor to the Senate foreign relations committee, who is one of the first to look at the document. Zimmerman was stunned to see how severely the dissenting opinions of the Energy Department and the State Department undercut the conclusions that were so boldly stated in the NIE’s “Key Judgmentsâ€

gulliver wrote:

The neocons split from their liberal roots decades ago to infect the Republican party. We don't necessarily want them back.

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I understand your disenchantment with the Republican party. The Democrats have never forgiven them for freeing the slaves.

ZSpiddy