RRC Archives

charlie wrote:You know I love you to death Paul but come on. This donation box just seemed to be an archeological relic? The fact that you of all people, a climber I consider to be well above the average in intelligence and responsibility can miss it than what can we do? Education by signs clearly isn't going to fix anything, especially when no one reads the signs.

again, i simply never knew. i never saw anyone put anything in there. i never saw anything on it change.

ok.. let's get rid of all signs and educational materials. everything is word of mouth from now on. do you think things will improve or not? haven't you ever gotten bad beta on 11b slab? ever wonder about what's appropriate in terms of climbing or personal courtesy? i didn't know that we were supposed to find everything out on intuition.. i thought that's exactly what we were trying to change.

if you're having trouble, ask for help. regardless of how many times it's turned down or pushed till later, i'll keep offering it. again, i'll finance anything you want to hand out/pass out. i think it's foolish to think that something won't work when you haven't ever really tried.

THIS SHOULDN'T BE THE FINGER POINTING IT'S COME TO. SACK UP AND LET'S GET SOMETHING DONE!

I think it has always been an issue with following the rules by climbers, the problem now is that there are just so many of us out there. People climbed at HP40 when it was technially closed, but the gate was open. People climbed at LRC when the permit system was down, assuming it was open by default, rather then closed by default. I personally climbed at pocket wall after the no tresspassing signs went up, because "they don't apply to climbers."

Maybe I am a bit jaded, but I really don't see much hope of real change. It will contiue to be a very small percent of people that go over and above thier fair share of work to keep things going, while the majority just keeps it's collective head in the sand. Personally, I am strong enough and diverse enough in my climbing, that I can still climb for years at the red and other places without much trouble, even if a few or even many places get shut down. It is the people that only get out a couple times a month (or year) at the most that are going to suffer, so those are the people that need to step up.

Mark, Kathy and family thanks so much for opening your back yard for us climbers to play in and thanks for giving us a second chance when we break all the rules.

~Rob Hunter

What we DON'T need is to ridicule people for violating "the rules" unintentionally. I applaud Paul for admitting his mistake and making it known. How can we remedy a situation if we don't know where the problem lies?

What we DO need to do is learn from our mistakes and pay respect where respect is due. If this means mailing Torrent thank you cards, approaching the Meyers personally and thanking them, or asking them if there's anything you can do to help them, etc., then do it! Make them feel good about what they're doing and offer solutions.

charlie wrote:Education by signs clearly isn't going to fix anything, especially when no one reads the signs....

....We don't have to manage the communication between everyone and clearly signs and phamplets aren't going to work. Posting them is a minimum requirement but really those in the know are just going to have to proselytize.

....Climbers didn't used to have so much trouble understanding the rules of engagement. I don't know what has changed or what I can do to correct it but I admit I'm troubled. When I compare us to paddlers, hikers, and bikers I get more and more ashamed at how selfish and irresponsible our culture has become.

Charlie, I disagree with you. Education and posted information is the key to change in this community. And as much as it sucks, by default the RRGCC is the group that can best educate and distribute the information. Climbers have always had trouble understanding the rules and following them, just look at our history...the homey hole is a great example. The reason it seems so bad now is because our number have gotten so HUGE in the last 4 or 5 years.

Education is a good thing. But, how do you educate the masses that don't bother to stop to read the signs, or just ignore them? Really, it just comes down to personal responsiblity - people have to take an active role in educating themselves.

Mark and Kathy have done a great thing by giving us a chance to make things right for torrent. And we need to to that, even if they decide it is best to close Torrent to the public. But, what happens later this summer when the same sort of things happens at Muir or Roadside or some FS crags? We need to get out of the putting out fires mode, and into something that prevents the fires from starting.

Hueco tanks is a good example of what happens when the climbers cannot police themselves. But, maybe we need voluntery limits on the number of people at some crags, maybe everyone that wants to climb in the red should sit through a 25 minute movie? Or at least read a couple page flyer and sign off?

Some posible solutions:

Spash page for the online guidebook that list some of the main rules, with links to the full rules for each area.

Voluntery limits of cars/climbers at some of the more crowded crags

A two page (front and back) flyer that every climber at the red reads, signs and returns with the major rules and where to find more info printed on it. ( I can do this, if someone can help with the printing)

My apologies if it seemed I was pointing the finger at anything other than our entire culture. Did not mean to pick on Paul, but rereading I understand that's what it sounded like. Sorry Paul.

I wish I had the answers. I wish when people came up to me and said, "I want to volunteer what can I do?" I had a list of things to hand out and it just got done but every time I manage a volunteer effort it takes time away from what I could be doing to clear my own plate.

Again, I have no answers other than to suggest everyone work together. You are a bunch of smart fuckers and other than maybe a cursory review by Mark and maybe the BOD what would you need from us in this instance?

Wes wrote:Some posible solutions:

Spash page for the online guidebook that list some of the main rules, with links to the full rules for each area.

I mentioned in the real guidebook to pay the donation box and also keep dogs on a leash but I guess people don't really read that stuff. I can do the same in the online guidebook though anyway if you think it will help.

I was thinking more of a general spash page before you even get to the areas - sorta like the registeration page - that you read the rules (for torrent, muir, MPRP, etc), then they get to see the main part of the guide. Not sure how effective it would be, but it would be another step.

SCIN wrote:

Wes wrote:Some posible solutions:

Spash page for the online guidebook that list some of the main rules, with links to the full rules for each area.

I mentioned in the real guidebook to pay the donation box and also keep dogs on a leash but I guess people don't really read that stuff. I can do the same in the online guidebook though anyway if you think it will help.