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Typically, this thread, like many others on this forum, has degenerated into nitpicking each other's semantics. The truth is that almost every one of us would agree that deleterious human impact on the approaches to and bases under many climbs is bad and can be lessened... with a little volunteer effort.

It's a fact that very few people who regularly climb in the Red lift a finger to help maintain climbs, bases, and approach trails. A small, dedicated core of you folks, like JB, recognize the responsibility of climbers to contribute a little time and effort toward maintaining their playgrounds.

We're truly fortunate at Muir to have a group of volunteers -- Friends of Muir Valley -- who are doing much of this necessary maintenance on an on-going basis. The Southern Region also has its group of energetic caretakers. August 6 will hopefully see a hoard of volunteers descend on the SR, and FoMV will be conducting another trail day-food-music fest in the fall at Muir.

So, I would suggest that instead of wielding a poison pen on this forum, please contribute some of that pent up frustration energy into helping maintain YOUR favorite climbing areas.

Those of you interested in helping with Roadside should contact Grant Stephens, the land owner, first to be sure your efforts coincide with his plans.

Rick

Why do we separate ourselves from nature itself? Why do we construe ourselves any different then the rain and the winds? Why do we construe Mother Earth as weak, when she will outlast all of us? In the Red River Gorge area, she has restored herself from our clear cutting and strip mining. Overtime she will crumble our roads. She will systematically collapse even those structures designed by our brightest minds. She has the awesome power to take back every inch of ground taken from her. And yet in our arrogance we construe her as weak and helpless. When in reality, she can generate powerful forces to destroy us at anytime.

This is not to say; she is not to be honored, respected and cherished. We should cherish her, the same as we cherish mankind itself. For we are interconnected with nature. We are one and the same. We breathe her breath, and supply her with carbon dioxide to create a balance that is so intertwined that you cannot separate the two.

We recreate (the root word of recreation) with this land. Like the air we breathe, the need for man to recreate is one of life’s essential elements. During the process we leave an impact. Like age, we are part of the erosion process. The very erosion process that created the area we love and speak of.

Mother Earth is not static. To try to preserve her or restore her into a previous time stifles her dynamic progression. Is preservation the proper solution to a dynamic system? In our wisdom we thought we would preserve her through zero tolerance to forest fires only to find these fires are essential to the health of forest.

I can not speak for Grant. Nor will I speak for John. Just as a side note: John broke his shoulder last night while mountain biking. However I’m close enough to John to have some insight into his love and respect for this land. He would want us to respect her as she is. Enjoy her and marvel at her transformations. Contrary to those who view climbing only as a contest, she is not to be conquered or controlled. Become one with her and recognize your place within her. And enjoy every moment you have to be intertwined within her majestic and mystic powers. Even if it does mean six weeks in a sling and weeks of painful rehabilitation.

ReachHigh wrote:If it was human erosion that caused the problem wouldn't be of the same ethic to chip new starter holds?

Climbers are in the wholesale mode of jack-hammering a 10 foot by 10 foot grid of bolts into the Red River cliffs and you're suggesting that chipping a little edge is questionable?

ZSpider

weber wrote: "almost every one of us would agree that deleterious human impact on the approaches to and bases under many climbs is bad"

Mark me down as one who doesn't agree. Erosion is what made the Gorge. Accelerating that erosion in a few places here and there is not going to make a significant difference in the big picture.

Some can argue that accelerating the erosion is ugly, but now we're talking about aesthetics, not environmental impact.

I remind everyone here that logging takes place in Daniel Boone National Forest. If you use paper, or if you live in a wood house, then you have already had far more impact on the Gorge than climbers ever will.

One more ironic point: People who drive their cars 500 miles round trip for a weekend of climbing will then sit at the base of the crag and debate the environmental impact of a trail in the woods.

Joel wrote:..Erosion is what made the Gorge. Accelerating that erosion in a few places here and there is not going to make a significant difference in the big picture.

you're missing the point of the concern..

Joel wrote: Some can argue that accelerating the erosion is ugly, but now we're talking about aesthetics, not environmental impact.

actually, for me, it is a matter of being able to get to the start holds (sorry if this point has already been made). fuzzy undercling is becoming a dyno to the small crimpers cling-for-your-life-shorter-people(!).

pile up the starter rocks...that might be a better option...of course, that adds an entire new "aid" rating to any climb

pigsteak wrote:pile up the starter rocks...that might be a better option...of course, that adds an entire new "aid" rating to any climb

we need an S rating to tack on describing how many stones you need to pile up to start the route.

dude! i'm totally on the tips of my toes under undercling and even then it's wobbly. i'm not steady on my feet in the first place, why else would i use a rope? how about i transport in some dirt? there's enough construction in the area that it wouldn't be too hard.