RRC Archives

Caspian wrote:Personally, I think seneca is a dangerous place to learn...or to even walk along the base.

American Crack was my first lead...and save the somewhat hard, but well protected start....I think its a great first lead. Big face holds, easy stemming, great pro in a continous crack...

I think Seneca is only dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, how to act while climbing in the wild, or are a complete idiot. That said, there are a lot of folks like that running around out there. I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint that you have a clue of what you are doing and / or learn traditional climbing tips, tricks, and techniques from some one with some experience (the ole apprentice system).

I guess ya'll are right about the American Crack thing. I just think about the wet, muddy start, dirty crack above the ledge, sleazy little roof/buldge and typical Fortress dirty finish and can't imagine it a a great first trad lead. Then again if you are wanting to lead trad in the Red, it IS a great first trad lead.

Steve wrote:I think Seneca is only dangerous if you don't know what you are doing

weren't we talking about first time trad leaders?

I also disagree that something is only dangerous if one does not know what they are doing. Seneca seems to be packed with loose rock and inexperienced climbers. I do not believe it matters how much experience you have...it is still dangerous.

Steve wrote:I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint that you have a clue of what you are doing

again, I apologize if we are not on the same page, but I thought we were discussing first time trad leads.

Oh no I think we are on the same page as far a first time trad leads. I'm just under the thought that first time trad leads should be done with someone with experience in traditional climbing. Now I'm not naive enough to think that there aren't groups of total newbies out there plugging away sparkling new gear, just don't think that is the best way to learn. And while Seneca is full of loose rocks and inexperienced climbers so is Fortress Wall.

Wes wrote: And you are super experenced at trad climbing? I know I think that it is a tricky route to protect, and it is east to pump out placing what might only be marginal pro. So, I would have to very strongly disagree with what you said about it being a good first/early trad lead.

Wes

In my opinion (and you can disagree all you want, it's a free country) it's not that hard of a route to climb if you want to learn trad and have lots of sport experience. Why? Because most sport climbers don't know how to jam. But they excel at climbing pockets. Motha is all pockets, so you are climbing something familiar instead of having to learn to jam and place gear at the same time.

I'm a strong believer that no one should lead trad until they've gotten a good lesson. Preferably by an AMGA certified guide. You should know what a good placement is and what isn't before leading. To me that's like climbing without knowing how to tie a figure 8.

Wes, you're probably right that there's lots of bad pockets, I haven't climbed it since early last year and don't remember exactly. But I do remember that I didn't have much of a problem finding good spots to place gear while resting.



This is Squeeze on either Jump for Joy or Motha (I can't remember). You can see some of the very good placements here.

Wes wrote:I think calypso III gets the sandbag of the year award for the 5.7 and under division.

Wes

Me too. Pissed me off because I was looking for stuff my daughter could make it up, and we'd done American Crack so I figured why not hang a toprope on this 5.2 and let her have a go and she can't get 20 feet off the ground and I broke a hellacious sweat just toproping up to get my draws back off the anchors. I couldn't decide if that crack near the top was trying to swallow me or spit me out. I feared both.

I think it's 5.6 or 5.7 with buttload of it fairly sustained.

ZSpider

I had some extensive ground schooling on good & bad placements. I would place the gear & hang on them but I was 5 inches off the ground so no danger. We went through over-camming, under-camming, when the crack opens up in the back, etc, etc, etc.

All of it went out the window when I was up there. Ok...not all of it...I remembered what a good placement looked like, but I was so scared I didn't trust a damn thing.

I've also seconded and cleaned a bit of trad so I knew how to climb a crack...I'm just not any good at it!

Diggum -- forget the fear. It will rob you of your ability to have fun and send the climb.

When you feel you're starting to get tense, find a place to rest (not that hard on easy trad route), take a bunch of deep breaths, and blank your mind out. Visualize the stress draining out of your body.

Sometimes it give you confidence to hang on your gear. Throw 2 or 3 pieces in (so you're well backed up), then hang on your gear. Once your confident with that, bounce on it a bit. Once that's no problem, take small falls on it, then increase the distance of those falls (within reason) until you're confident. If I remember correctly that's one of the things Arno suggests in the Rock Warrior's Way. Of course, do all this high enough off the ground so you won't ground fall.

Calyso III is a fine beginner crack with easy stances and a less than vertical face. The grade might be a bit sanbagged but it's probably not too far off - esp. for an old school crack grade. Nice climb - my first one is now closed (temporarily - yeah right!) seuss seuss sudio. It its poorer rock quality but real easy stances - i got kinda spooked on it too. American Crack makes a good starter climb too.

Or so that you don't linger after you do.

D you did fine on it. got shook up - went inside, found strength, said "i'm finishing this!" and did.