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Bushwhacker, how would you retrieve your rope if single-line rapping were being advocated? That doesn't make much sense does it? Also, how is rapping more dangerous than being lowered? I don't understand that one either. If this were the case then wouldn't it be a standard practice on multi-pitch (where most fatal rappeling accidents occur) to lower each other to the ground instead of rapping? And if you hit the ground due to rope stretch even though you tied a knot at the end of the rope then you are probably a serious contender for a Darwin Award and lacking in common sense.

Maillons are just as easily replaced as a locking biner and are screwed on tight with a wrench...so can't be taken as booty. That is always an option for yas.

bushwhacker wrote:
...The key issue is, what happens if the rappeller becomes disabled or otherwise loses control of the rappell. If they're rapping without a backup, they will hit the ground pretty quick, and a knot tied near the end of the rope will not do too much good, due to rope stretch you'll still hit the ground pretty hard, especially since you seem to be advocating single-line rapping.

Sorry, looks like I didn't make it clear that I was advocating the standard two-line rappel -- not a single line rap. The reason for knotting the ends of a rope is always a good idea and strongly advocated by AMGA and other climbing manuals. Although not as important on single pitch cragging as on long multi-pitch routes, a knot will positively prevent a climber from rapping off the the end of the rope.

When a climber cleans an anchor and sets up a two-line rap, it is easy to forget the step of making sure the climber's end of the rope has been pulled all the way through the rings and reaches the ground. Sometimes this is due to not being able to see the ground, and sometimes it is just carelessness. Even a prusik or autoblock backup on a two-line rap will not prevent a fall when the short end of the rope exits the rap device.

bushwhacker wrote:Using a rappell back-up device is hardly better and akin to using a rope to "belay" someone performing a swift-water rescue, because the device which was supposed to save you is now going to prevent you from reaching the ground, or from being easily lowered, if you are unconscious. Whereas a climber being lowered by the belayer who somehow becomes disabled will still get to the ground under control.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the comparative safety between rapping and lowering. Rarely do rappers or belayers become unconscious while descending or lowering. If anything, a belayer would seem to have a higher probability of having a rock dropped on his head, and if he is using a non-self locking device, such as an ATC, the climber he is lowering is going to deck. Personally, I'd much rather rap off. And, if I do go unconscious, they'll just have to come up and get me.

The bottom line is this: Regardless of how you return to the deck -- rapping or lowering -- do it safely. If you are in Muir Valley and you do not feel safe in rapping off, then by all means have your belayer lower you. Hardware is cheap; hospitals aren't.

Thank you, Bushwhacker, for your comments.

Rick

*And, if I do go unconscious, they'll just have to come up and get me.*

How? What if no one else is there, just you and your partner?

Why do you back up your rappel? In case you lose control. And what's going to make you lose control? Well, loss of consciousness for starters, in which case your rappel back-up device now becomes the major obstacle to getting you back to the ground. I understand that for multi pitch descents rapping is the way to go, but for single pitch sport it just seems dumb. Tying knots in the ends, making sure both ends are on the ground, bringing a rappel device and back-up device with you on redpoint...no thanks, just lower me please! There is a reason why every "How To Sport Climb" book out there tells you to thread the anchor and lower, because it's safer than rapping.

hey Bushwhacker, how are you going to become unconscious from rapping and not by lowering? Do you like to push off the wall and come swinging back into at full force? I don't understand your arguement. Rapping is safer in the long run by not wearing the anchors out as quickly as lowering off them. Caring an atc with you on every climb is a good idea regardless of redpoint or not, and if a sling and ATC is too much weight for you, hmmm, may I suggest wire biners on your draws. The combined weight you save should be enough to carry one spectra sling (DMM makes some well under an ounce) and one belay device. If that's still too much trouble you could always avoid climbing at Muir

*Bushwhacker, how would you retrieve your rope if single-line rapping were being advocated? That doesn't make much sense does it? Also, how is rapping more dangerous than being lowered? I don't understand that one either. If this were the case then wouldn't it be a standard practice on multi-pitch (where most fatal rappeling accidents occur) to lower each other to the ground instead of rapping? And if you hit the ground due to rope stretch even though you tied a knot at the end of the rope then you are probably a serious contender for a Darwin Award and lacking in common sense.*

We're talking single pitch, sub 100' sport routes here, like at the Red; you are single line rapping down one end while your partner secures the other. And yes, rapping is more dangerous than being lowered with a grigri - it just is, period. Just about everything that can go wrong with a rappel is eliminated or mitigated by being lowered with a grigri, whereas only an utterly incompetent belayer is going to drop you with a grigri, in which case you win the Darwin award for letting them belay you in the first place.

I realize that getting conked on the head by rockfall while rapping or being lowered is a pretty unlikely scenario, but someone stuck, hanging upside-down 50' up, unconscious, with a profusely bleeding head wound (something I have personally witnessed and ended up assisting in the body recovery) is a disaster to be avoided at all costs. It is just common sense to use your safety gear in a manner that doesn't potentially trade one bad situation for another.

bushwhacker wrote: you are single line rapping down one end while your partner secures the other. And yes, rapping is more dangerous than being lowered with a grigri - it just is, period.

I think there's some confusion on how to rappel. You don't fix the rope at the top and slide down one end of the rope. You thread the rope through the anchors so that both ends of the rope touch the ground and you put both lines of the rope through your ATC so that your weight is distriputed equally between both lines. You then feed out rope just like you would for lowering someone if you were the belayer, only instead of lowering them, you lower yourself. Knotting the ends is just an extra precaution incase you didn't make sure both ends of the rope touched the ground. I've seen a lot more accidents with people being lowered by experienced and very competent belayers then with people rapping from a climb's anchors.

bushwhacker wrote:*And, if I do go unconscious, they'll just have to come up and get me.*

How? What if no one else is there, just you and your partner?

That's where training I've taken from Tony Barnes, based on AMGA self rescue instruction and David Fasulo's book on Self Rescue Training come in handy. To answer your question in general terms: anchor a bottom end of the rapper's rope, use a Tibloc, prusik, Bachman, etc. or combinations thereof to ascend the rope to the climber. Upright and Stabilize the climber and do what first aid you can. Set up the classic "pick off" and rap down with your injured climber. Not an easy chore, but learning this stuff can save a life.

Oh, and if your climber is injured while you are lowering him/her and gets hung up in a crack or other feature, then you will first have to escape the belay, of course, before ascending. Not as likely to happen on these RRG crags, but a real concern on the big stuff. I wonder how many climbers here in the Red know how to escape a belay safely - either to ascend to the climber or go get help? Darned few, I'll bet.

Please understand that if you or anyone else has a strong preference for lowering, then do so. There are no hard and fast rules in the Valley other than keeping it as safe as possible.

Rick

*Please understand that if you or anyone else has a strong preference for lowering, then do so. There are no hard and fast rules in the Valley other than keeping it as safe as possible.*

That's all I want to hear, thanks. Can't wait to check out the new routes!

* You thread the rope through the anchors so that both ends of the rope touch the ground and you put both lines of the rope through your ATC so that your weight is distriputed equally between both lines. You then feed out rope just like you would for lowering someone if you were the belayer, only instead of lowering them, you lower yourself.*

Not following you here, sounds like you are describing a standard rap set-up until you get to the "feed the rope out like you would for lowering" part. To do what you are describing, basically lowering yourself on rappell, you would thread the anchor, tie back in (not have both ends on the ground), and rap down the other end; basically the same thing you do course-setting in a gym if you don't use a floor anchor.