RRC Archives

You must have really pissed off that snake to get 5 bites. Did you step on it or what?

Yep, deep in the Clifty Wilderness. I was walking through a thick bed of ferns. Can't blame the little guy, he's still out there, with the taste of human blood.....

An epi pen would be bad news because it increases the heart rate so much. It's one of the drugs we use during codes in the hospital. The goal is to keep your heart rate low in order to prevent circulation of the venom as much as possible, stay calm and get to the hospital.

Here is what they told us in my First Responder class.

1. Remove any jewelry from the effected extremity
2. Immobilize the bitten extremity. Cleam the wound site.
3. Keep the person clam and still
4. Treat for shock
5. If the person will not be in a hospital within 5 hours, put a constricting band,
two inches wide, two inches above and below the swelling. Do not cut off
blood flow.
6. Never put ice on the wound, cut the wound, or suck out the venom, unless
directed by a doctor. NEVER suck the venom out with your mouth!!!

See ya,
Chris

"A girl needs a gun these days, on account of those rattlesnakes..."
~Tori Amos

ralst4 has the right idea. I can only tell you what they tell us lowly paramedics and what the lady at Poison Control just told me about snakebites. There is a huge difference in toxins between copperheads and rattlers. With a copperhead you've got time to get to the hospital, rattlesnake bites depend on how/where you got bit as well as the age of the snake (older=more venom). The venoms are different, too.

As for epi-pens, they won't do any good for bites. The reactions in your body is from the actions of the toxin, epi-pens (which use epinephrine) can help stop immune reactions but won't do anything for the bite unless you have some allergic reaction to the toxin which is very unlikely.

If you get bit at the crag and you think it's poisonous:

1. You're done climbing for the day.
2. If you can SAFELY identify the snake it can help with treatment but it's not totally necessary.
3. Don't mess around with trying to suck anything from anywhere. Just splint the bite site if possible to help reduce the amount of toxin that will leave the bite site. Try to keep it below the level of your heart.
4. Get to the hospital. I don't know much about hospitals in KY, but I think I would prefer University in Lexington. However, I'm not sure which hospitals in the area actually have anti-toxin on site.
5. If you're getting a lot of swelling around the bite site it's not a bad idea to use a pen and mark the edges of the swelling and the time you marked it. This can help identify how fast swelling is progressing.

The bottom line is that you will probably be fine but don't delay professional treatment.

Good luck.

Winchester has anti-venom. They deal with this a lot, but won't use it unless someone has a severe allergic reaction or it's a rattlesnke bite (neurotoxin). Many people have a bad reaction to the anti-venom.
They are the ones that told me that the Sawyer Extractor can be VERY beneficial if used correctly.

So... what about the wet/dry theory - snakes are more active after periods of rainfall because game is pushed out and hunting is easier- has anybody heard of that or is it just folklore?

marathonmedic wrote:ralst4 has the right idea. I can only tell you what they tell us lowly paramedics and what the lady at Poison Control just told me about snakebites. There is a huge difference in toxins between copperheads and rattlers. With a copperhead you've got time to get to the hospital, rattlesnake bites depend on how/where you got bit as well as the age of the snake (older=more venom). The venoms are different, too.

As for epi-pens, they won't do any good for bites. The reactions in your body is from the actions of the toxin, epi-pens (which use epinephrine) can help stop immune reactions but won't do anything for the bite unless you have some allergic reaction to the toxin which is very unlikely.

If you get bit at the crag and you think it's poisonous:

1. You're done climbing for the day.
2. If you can SAFELY identify the snake it can help with treatment but it's not totally necessary.
3. Don't mess around with trying to suck anything from anywhere. Just splint the bite site if possible to help reduce the amount of toxin that will leave the bite site. Try to keep it below the level of your heart.
4. Get to the hospital. I don't know much about hospitals in KY, but I think I would prefer University in Lexington. However, I'm not sure which hospitals in the area actually have anti-toxin on site.
5. If you're getting a lot of swelling around the bite site it's not a bad idea to use a pen and mark the edges of the swelling and the time you marked it. This can help identify how fast swelling is progressing.

The bottom line is that you will probably be fine but don't delay professional treatment.

Good luck.

Actually, most of the antitoxin in the United States is made in Slade. THe guy who owns the "rattlesnake" pit collects venomous snakes, milks them and sells anti-venom. I know this info isn't helpful, but it's kinda kewl.

That is kinda kewl. Another tidbit, they usually put people on a combination of Benadryl and an IV of epinephrine while administering antivenin since people have such violent anaphylactic reactions to it. I guess they try and avoid using it if at all possible since it's so dangerous and very expensive.

Ok, heres some stuff to clear things up around here. I am somewhat of an amatuer herpetologist and I found this forum by searching for snakes in the Red. Who was it that said Google was a great thing? They were 100% correct.

Copperheads and rattlesnakes both have hemotoxic venom. This, in a nutshell, means that the venom actually begins the digestive process. A mouse or squirrel actually has to worry about their insides being digested, but humans only have to worry about tissue damage. And, if not treated, some bites can be deadly.

However, its important to keep in mind that there has not been a death attributed to a copperhead in more than 40 years, and even the reports of deaths before that are a little sketchy. Most likely the bite was from another kind of pit viper, like a cottonmouth or rattlesnake. Truth be told, most doctors wont even give you antivenin for copperhead bites. Most will just check you out, make sure you're ok, give you some painkillers and antibiotics and send you on your way. Of course, for more serious envenomations, this isnt the case.

Rattlensnake bites should be taken more seriously. While the chances are that the bite victim has plenty of time to get to a hospital, this cannot be guarenteed, and he/she should not waste any time getting to one.

Someone said that a poison control person told them that allergic reactions are highly unlikely. This is not true in the least. I am somewhat surprised that a "professional" would say this. Allergic reactions are actually quite common in snakebites. Alot of experts say that the allergic reaction kills more people than the venom itself.

What Ralst said was good advice and should be taken as such.

About the constricting band. This is good for neurotoxic bites as it helps keep the neurotoxins from reaching the organs. However, in a hemotoxic bite, you do NOT want to keep the venom in one finger or something. Remember what I said about digestion? Believe it or not, you do want the hemotoxic venom to spread a little bit so the tissue damage is less severe in a given area. This, of course, has its exceptions as well.

Sawyer Extractor? Its good for helping keep the victim calm, but to be frank, its almost worthless. You may be able to pull a little of the venom out, but the amount will be almost nil and probably wont make a difference anyways. Dont waste time on it, just get the person to the hospital.

In the herpetology world, there is a big discussion as to whether some pit vipers (which are largely hemotoxic) are developing neurotoxic properties in their venom. The snake most in question is the Timber Rattlesnake. It seems that there have been more and more cases of neurotoxic symptoms in bites from this species, especially in the deep South. Dr. Bryan Frye, probably the worlds most famous and most respected venom researcher, thinks that this venom has been there all along. I agree with him for many reasons...

As far as this happening in copperheads, there have been no reasons, instances, or any evidence that would support such a theory.

Anyways, its midnight and my eyes are drooping. Hope this helps clarify a few things. I cant wait to get down there. Red River Rocks!