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It's interesting that you think Too Many Puppies is soft 12a, as it feels closer to 12b for me, although I start on the ground and do the end completely ass-backwards. But when I compare it to other 12a's of similar style that I've done at the Red and Jackson (e.g. Golden Road, Detox Mountain, Hidden Treasure, Ever Ready Betty, Suppress the Rage, Galaxy 500) it holds up pretty well.

Agreed, nothing soft about TMP in my opinion.

THB wrote:Iniquity is not a test piece for the grade at all! And some people are starting to say the boulder problem start is optional?? That's a load of BS! (At least I read one person comment about this on 8a.nu). If you don't do the boulder problem on Iniquity then you climbed an 11+ at most... with the boulder problem, I would consider it low-end 12b.

I guess i disagree that skipping the bottom boulder problem lowers it to 11+. Pigsteak gave it 12b even when the start was only V3. I've only done 11 12a's or b's at the red, but even just the top part of Iniquity, to me, feels harder than all of them. It is certainly taking more tries.

bcircell wrote:although I start on the ground

Isn't that how you start every rock climb?? (With just a few exceptions, i.e. - Non Starter.) If people are starting TMP from the boulder, that's BS... invalid ascent!

I guess I mis-spoke when I said it was low-end 12a... I guess I'd say Manifest Destiny (this one is maybe 11d now, right?), Wild Yet Tasty, Ro Shampo, Gluttony, Hardcore Jollies, Burlier's Bane (I'd agree this is hard for 11c, but I don't think it's 12a... maybe 11d); but anyway, I guess I could consider these more low-end 12a's... Then I'd put Routes like Too Many Puppies, Grippy Green, Wildfire, Kick Me In The Jimmie, etc... at more like spot on 12a... there are 2 routes that stand out for me as being contenders for "bench-mark" 12a routes, and for me that's Chainsaw and Bare Metal Teen... They both took me significantly more tries than any other 12a I've done in the gorge.

If you climb a lot at the RRG only, then I could see how TMP would feel hard for 12a... but if you climb a lot at the New or at Smith Rock and then go do TMP, I don't think you'd feel it's hard for 12a. But again, like I said, maybe TMP just suits my style better and what you think is a bench-mark or a test-piece route for a given grade depends on your size, style, etc...

Spikeddem wrote:

THB wrote:Iniquity is not a test piece for the grade at all! And some people are starting to say the boulder problem start is optional?? That's a load of BS! (At least I read one person comment about this on 8a.nu). If you don't do the boulder problem on Iniquity then you climbed an 11+ at most... with the boulder problem, I would consider it low-end 12b.

I guess i disagree that skipping the bottom boulder problem lowers it to 11+. Pigsteak gave it 12b even when the start was only V3. I've only done 11 12a's or b's at the red, but even just the top part of Iniquity, to me, feels harder than all of them. It is certainly taking more tries.

Well, Pigsteak's routes are all soft, everyone knows that! Haha, jk...

If you skip the boulder problem... I'd go 12a at most... no harder than Mama Benson without the boulder problem at the start. I don't think it compares with routes like Ale-8-One, Rocket Dog, Buff The Wood, Mercy, Samurai, etc... without the boulder problem at the start. I mean, you do the boulder problem, stand on a foot ledge and go no hands to recover for as long as you want, climb mid 11 stuff, to a no-hands rest on the ramp, some more mid 11 stuff, to a 3-ish move v3 (i guess), then easy stuff to go clip the anchors. I agree, 12b with the boulder problem, but without it there is just no way this things stacks up to 12b.

Unfortunately I never had the chance to try it before the boulder problem broke and got harder.

Ah, just like the good ol days! It's funny tho, because for as many new great routes that have gone up since I've been gone, I'm still seeing lots of classic names pop up on people's lists. Wangsaw Massacre, Steelwacker, BMT, etc. I guess there's a reason they call em classics! I guess if you wanted to call something a "testpiece", it should have the reputation that if you can do this route, then you can do any route in the Red at that grade. That's still tough to do tho because of different climbing styles. A 12a slab will shut me down all day, but a nice overhanging jug haul might go down in a few tries. Just my .02, but I really don't have the whole .02 to give away, so I'm going to finance it. 6 months same as cash.

M