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stars denote quality and take into account a variety of factors such as asthetics, rock quality, gear, and the ever-subjective enjoyment factor.

Thanks. I appreciate the helpful responses!

It basically translates to "Is this route worth my time?".

Mj

In my opinion Defy the Laws is one of the best 10's at the Red. Thanks for listening 8)

Power2U wrote:In my opinion Defy the Laws is one of the best 10's at the Red. Thanks for listening 8)

well it's hard to ignore anyone who humps Wes... also, your tick list is mighty impressive! Thanks for your feedback.

Eff you all, I'm going to do this route this weekend (if I'm not in a cast) and I'll decide. If it's my first 10a onsite redpoint, it'll get 5 stars!

Sandy,

Good luck on it... I hope it stays dry for all of us

Sandy,

Almost everyone I have ever talked to has thought this was one of the best 10a's at the red. We are changing the grades of routes and that is much more signifigant than adding a star to a popular route. Go climb the route before you, the woman in control of the database, bring the smack down on the rest of us peons.

We are not changing John's book. We are creating Ray's guide. They are two completely seperate references created and used in different ways. We have used internet geek consensus to change other factors in the book many times.

Being 5 foot 4 i can tell you that the crux is not reachy at all. It is technical and one of the best easy cruxs at the red. i have never run into mud on the route and the no hands rest makes it 10a. I have probably climbed this route 10 times in the last 5 years and every time it rocks my world. It used to be an awesome challenge. Now it is a great warmup.

So how about we go with the consensus of people who have climbed it. We can leave this poll for a few more days and see what happens.

I'll try not to piss myself while I'm on it.

Oh, wait, did you mean rain?

ps. good luck on the route sandy. redpoint or not i think you will find it tons of fun.

Merrick, I'm game. I was serious about listening. Power2U's comment is significant, given his breadth of experience at the Red. His influence is right up there with the old coots who make me swoon (climbing wise that is), I have to confess. Your opinion matters, too. I'd like to hear from Ray and Artsay and Muao Dib and Wes on this one, since I regard their opinions very highly. I really don't know how to peel away the subjectivity, so I'm being completely frank about it. Also, the bottom line is that if Ray says it's 3 stars, it's going to be 3 stars. This is HIS guidebook afterall.

I was kidding about rating it based on my experience (though I will climb it - it sounds great!). What I think of the route will have no influence on it's quality rating. Hell I liked Exacta! WTF do I know?