Project Draws: How Long is Too Long?

[pigsteak]

an interesting note...it was noted that it took more "time" at the Lode this weekend because of the cleaning of draws from routes, and people had to wait. but aren't there steel PD's on the anchors, so no transfer had to take place. and a mid height cleaning draw? wiht those, how long does it really take to clean the rest of one's draws? like 2-3 minutes?


the reason I ask, I was at an undisclosed cliff on sunday where the lines were 2-3 parties deep on most of the sport lines. not a single one had a single PD attached, and we all got along just fine. sure, it was bothersome to have to wait in line for a route, but I did not feel entitled to have steel PD's up for my comfort and so I could hit that last pitch of the day. why should the Lode be any different form the 90% of other packed cliffs right now where people have to be patient and just take a chill pill, or move on?

sometimes I think we sport climbers forget to slow down, merely enjoy the pitches we get in, and no always be so consumed by getting on the proj or the next hardest thing we can send. I know I am guilty at times.

[climb2core]

Why the secrecy??? An undisclosed public crag...

[lena_chita]

I can't really vote on the poll above. The longest I ever dedicated to "working" a route was 6 days, with ~1-3 attempts per day. But those 6 days have been spread over the course of couple years.

I can only come to the Red for a weekend, and it is usually every two weeks in the best-case scenario, so I do not leave my draws hanging as "project draws". I clean them at the end of the day, because there might be months before I visit the same route (because it depends on who I will be climbing with, and what their agenda is, too -- they have their priorities, projects, etc.)

I freely admit that I like climbing on pre-hung draws, whether they are perma-draws or someone else's project draws.

But the only tenable positions for draws left on routes are the two extremes:

Either we declare that there shall be NO DRAWS LEFT OVERNIGHT-- anywhere at all, be it the Maddness cave, the Darkside, or Purgatory-- except on private land where the owner takes active part in managing their climbing area and has expressly stated their preference (e.i. Muir Valley), in which case, of course, the owner's opinion takes precedence.

Or, we continue with the current system where people leave draws hanging as they see fit, for as long as they see fit, on whichever routes they see fit, and if you see the entire route hung with draws, you leave them alone, and only take them down/replace them when you see an obviously unsafe draws (except for forest service land, where you always take them down, and private land where owners have expressed an opinion about it, e.g. Roadside). Historically this resulted in moderately- to highly-steep routes in 5.12 and above grade having the draws hanging. Whether or not popular high-traffic routes that always have some draws hanging get equipped with community-purchased steel perma-draws, can be open for community decision.


But it is not tenable to say that project draws are "O.K., but only for couple weeks", even assuming that you will find people to enforce an arbitrary rule like that, they will run themselves ragged trying to keep track of which draws where hanging on which routes, and what day did they go up. Because, if someone had their petzl spirits hanging on Ale8 for 3 days, and then someone hung their BD hotwires on it for 4 days, and then someone replaced them with Petzl spirits again, that looked just like the Petzl spirits that were there before the BD, but they now belong to a new person, unless the CREW was there every day to take note of which draws were hanging, they might decide that the spirits have been hanging for longer than a week, and thus should come down, when in fact they have been there for only a day.

[dustonian]

Yep. Plus the CREW will be off to Bishop or wherever soon and the draws will start pilin' up again like last time this happened.

[clif]

I can't really vote on the poll above. The longest I ever dedicated to "working" a route was 6 days, with ~1-3 attempts per day. But those 6 days have been spread over the course of couple years.

I can only come to the Red for a weekend, and it is usually every two weeks in the best-case scenario, so I do not leave my draws hanging as "project draws". I clean them at the end of the day, because there might be months before I visit the same route (because it depends on who I will be climbing with, and what their agenda is, too -- they have their priorities, projects, etc.)

I freely admit that I like climbing on pre-hung draws, whether they are perma-draws or someone else's project draws.

But the only tenable positions for draws left on routes are the two extremes:

Either we declare that there shall be NO DRAWS LEFT OVERNIGHT-- anywhere at all, be it the Maddness cave, the Darkside, or Purgatory-- except on private land where the owner takes active part in managing their climbing area and has expressly stated their preference (e.i. Muir Valley), in which case, of course, the owner's opinion takes precedence.

Or, we continue with the current system where people leave draws hanging as they see fit, for as long as they see fit, on whichever routes they see fit, and if you see the entire route hung with draws, you leave them alone, and only take them down/replace them when you see an obviously unsafe draws (except for forest service land, where you always take them down, and private land where owners have expressed an opinion about it, e.g. Roadside). Historically this resulted in moderately- to highly-steep routes in 5.12 and above grade having the draws hanging. Whether or not popular high-traffic routes that always have some draws hanging get equipped with community-purchased steel perma-draws, can be open for community decision.


But it is not tenable to say that project draws are "O.K., but only for couple weeks", even assuming that you will find people to enforce an arbitrary rule like that, they will run themselves ragged trying to keep track of which draws where hanging on which routes, and what day did they go up. Because, if someone had their petzl spirits hanging on Ale8 for 3 days, and then someone hung their BD hotwires on it for 4 days, and then someone replaced them with Petzl spirits again, that looked just like the Petzl spirits that were there before the BD, but they now belong to a new person, unless the CREW was there every day to take note of which draws were hanging, they might decide that the spirits have been hanging for longer than a week, and thus should come down, when in fact they have been there for only a day.

thank you so much for the sensible, helpful, well written post.

[climb2core]

Again, in the absence if direction from the land owner....

You can have a suggested Reds ethics policy that project draws not remain up longer than X amount of time. People would choose to follow it voluntarily the way most people choose to follow not TR'ing through the anchors. Of course, there will be people that will not follow it, but I think most people tend to try to follow local crag ethics.

I have never left draws overnight at the Red. I don't even know what the Weber's policy is... all I found is this:
"No hardware of any kind may be permanently affixed to any rock in Muir Valley without the written permission of the MVNP."
But does that include project draws for a day, a week or a month? When is it "permanently affixed"


But again, it sure would be nice for the RRGCC, the Weber's and Dario to come to consensus so the rules would be universal.

[pigsteak]

Why the secrecy??? An undisclosed public crag...

the wall is not important...the idea is, that why is it soooo hard to clean up after ourselves?

[Shamis]

Poll isn't really valid.

You can project a climb without leaving draws. I think leaving draws behind should mean you're really close to sending. I personally wouldn't want to leave my draws up for more than a week because I don't have any spare sets laying around.

[bcombs]

.... if the standard becomes any gear seen on a route is fair game to be removed, it will create even more problems... Gear at the top, base, or taken as booty without a legitimate reason....

Which was my point, and guaranteed this will happen. When you empower the entire user base to attempt to uphold agreed upon ethics you introuduce lots of scenarios like this. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, just a thing. For example, I've been climbing for alot of years (not so much lately, but whatever). I've been through AMGA training (two different certs) and I think I have a good handle on safety, ethics, etc... But just after the stewardship program was implemented at Muir I was "corrected" by a young man for not cleaning a "nearly vert" route on rappel as opposed to through the shuts. I swallowed my pride and accepted his critisism and moved on. But I could have just as easily exploded on him with my credentials and the Jerry Springer obligatory "you don't know me!".

My point was this, to me it doesn't seem at all feasible to establish how long and what routes can / cannot have project draws on them. In my head it makes more sense to have a black and white rule that doesn't require enforcement. We either can or cannot leave gear hanging. You mentioned it earlier with the TR through the shuts. The rule is don't do it, period. There are those that do, but the rule is not ambiguous is any way.

[climb2core]

You mentioned it earlier with the TR through the shuts. The rule is don't do it, period. There are those that do, but the rule is not ambiguous is any way.

Exactly, my example was showing that there is an understood rule that is black or white and most people choose to follow it. Now we need a new rule for project draws. Whatever time is determined (short of abandoned) and then everyone needs to be educated on it. Hopefully most people will do the "right thing" and stick to it. And as I will say again... it would be nice to have the time determined by consensus from the the RRGCC, the Weber's, and now apparently Dario. Having one standard will make the rule more black or white. Regardless, I don't think anything should be "enforced" by anyone other than the land owner. (with the exception of removing project draws if they are unsafe).

Routes with PD's or eligibility for PD's should be determined by the land owner. I think it is a great idea to create a document logging the routes with PD's and when they were put up/replaced. Then start selling steel PD's at Miguels. I would buy a couple to keep for switching out purposes if I saw one that needed it.